Return of Reckoning

Hi guys,

I've been meaning to write this post for a while, I'd like to offer some feedback on casual, small-scale play and the atmosphere of War.

I'll start with an explanation - WAR is a mmorpg and the meat of a MMORPG has always been and always will be the casual players. Solo, with a friend or two, open warbands - the works. A game filled with hardcore, organized players would end up being a borefest, you would have no one to test yourself against, it would be just number crunching and cookie cutter stuff. Now, this also has to do with the atmosphere. Warhammer is about big fights, sieges, going behind that tree to line of sight and seeing a sorc, picking him off, getting pulled in the middle of the zerg, etc. The new changes to RvR impact that a little, after the battle is spread out and organized roaming bands are highly profitable.

So a few things -

Making open Warbands is very, very frustrating and unrewarding. People never listen and you get nothing for your effort.

Some classes just dominate the lakes and pick off anyone trying to reach his warband or just walk around and enjoy himself.

The scenario change to have a pickup one is great, but scenarios are still pretty much off-limits for non-premades outside specific times. Scenarios are one of the best way to enjoy yourself in small groups, solo or casually.

And that's it for now. There's other stuff and I hope people are constructive in contributing on it.

Now onto my suggestions for this -

Warband leaders should get additional rewards. Leading a warband should give you max contribution on a keep (if 3 warbands, the 3 leaders should get the top 3 and then individual contribution ranks them). I don't know if this is possible, but it would lead not only to willingness to lead, but also competition, with people who want to put the effort in and people joining the quality ones (since a lot are available. A leader should also get additional contribution to a BO cap. Or when his group hands in resources. I'm not talking a lot, BOs already give little, but maybe some additional 50%, so the leader is incentivized to have a good WB.

Balance shamans for 1v1 a little and balance pets in solo play. I know balance discussions for 1v1 are not something we talk about, but Shamans are too dominant in the lakes against certain classes. Once they gear up to be able to survive a burst, they become unkillable, uncatcheable and do solid damage. So if you're just trying to catch up to a warband or go look at a BO, you encounter a shaman and have about as much chance as if you're soloing a hero. While I understand they should retain the mobility and everything, a nerf to where other classes have a CHANCE would do nicely. Maybe accompanied with a big-scale buff, to even things out. And pets, I have no idea what can be done here since I'm no squig or WL, but I do know it's immensely frustrating to be trying to play in lakes and get picked off by essentialy an NPC squig. Killing whom does nothing. I'm not that knowledgeable on the subject, so criicism here is more than welcome.

Scenarios could feature a bigger reward for getting steamrolled. Spending 20 minutes in the queue and then 5 mins getting destroyed by a premade just to get 0 renown isn't fun. In addition I've been thinking about the idea of premade specific scenarios, such as a rotation of 2-3 scenarios that are the only ones open for premades - could as well be the smaller scenarios. This would lead to a LOT more premade vs premade action and since premades would be funneled there, people joining them as pickups would most often end on the side of a premade against another premade, offering a more balanced and fun fight.

These are just ideas. I'm just offering feedback. Don't kill me for it. And I do recognize most forum-goers are orgnaized rvr players and /or hardcore, while most casual players do not come here to discuss balance. So I expect not a lot of understanding.

Vandoles wrote:Making open Warbands is very, very frustrating and unrewarding. People never listen and you get nothing for your effort.

Some classes just dominate the lakes and pick off anyone trying to reach his warband or just walk around and enjoy himself.

The scenario change to have a pickup one is great, but scenarios are still pretty much off-limits for non-premades outside specific times. Scenarios are one of the best way to enjoy yourself in small groups, solo or casually.

And that's it for now. There's other stuff and I hope people are constructive in contributing on it.

Now onto my suggestions for this -

Warband leaders should get additional rewards. Leading a warband should give you max contribution on a keep (if 3 warbands, the 3 leaders should get the top 3 and then individual contribution ranks them). I don't know if this is possible, but it would lead not only to willingness to lead, but also competition, with people who want to put the effort in and people joining the quality ones (since a lot are available. A leader should also get additional contribution to a BO cap. Or when his group hands in resources. I'm not talking a lot, BOs already give little, but maybe some additional 50%, so the leader is incentivized to have a good WB.

Creating an open warband doesn't cost you anything, so why should you be entitled to more rewards? You pointed out yourself that people don't listen therefore the usefullness of open warbands has to be questioned. In this rvr feedback post someone pointed out that you can't rely on open warbands at all. So again why should the leader of such an accumulation of solo players be rewarded above everyone else?

Aside from that I still think you may got a point. Afaik there is really no incentive to open up my group. Afaik casuals would just soak up a lot of renown while their only real use is as meat shields (due to the lack of quick communication). But they fulfill that role just fine outside the group. This is of course a condescending point of view.
Anyway I'm not sure if this should be changed. IMO the majority of the weight is upon the organized warbands and I'm assumung they are getting their contribution up anyway.

Vandoles wrote: Balance shamans for 1v1 a little and balance pets in solo play. I know balance discussions for 1v1 are not something we talk about, but Shamans are too dominant in the lakes against certain classes. Once they gear up to be able to survive a burst, they become unkillable, uncatcheable and do solid damage. So if you're just trying to catch up to a warband or go look at a BO, you encounter a shaman and have about as much chance as if you're soloing a hero. While I understand they should retain the mobility and everything, a nerf to where other classes have a CHANCE would do nicely. Maybe accompanied with a big-scale buff, to even things out. And pets, I have no idea what can be done here since I'm no squig or WL, but I do know it's immensely frustrating to be trying to play in lakes and get picked off by essentialy an NPC squig. Killing whom does nothing. I'm not that knowledgeable on the subject, so criicism here is more than welcome.

Don't get me wrong but shamans move as fast as you do on their mount. Why don't you turn around when you see them? I have been playing solo alot recently. And I loose to almost all solo classes on my BW because I'm to lazy to put on solo equip and spec accordingly. Still I get around just fine.
Just because you see an enemy doesn't mean you have to attack him. Especially if you're solo and know that you don't have much hope of winning. Pick your fights.

Vandoles wrote: Scenarios could feature a bigger reward for getting steamrolled. Spending 20 minutes in the queue and then 5 mins getting destroyed by a premade just to get 0 renown isn't fun. In addition I've been thinking about the idea of premade specific scenarios, such as a rotation of 2-3 scenarios that are the only ones open for premades - could as well be the smaller scenarios. This would lead to a LOT more premade vs premade action and since premades would be funneled there, people joining them as pickups would most often end on the side of a premade against another premade, offering a more balanced and fun fight.

What you're suggesting is already in place from my point of view. When I play solo I usually see two premades facing each other with some randoms added in. Depending on the scenarios randoms can have a smaller or bigger impact on the result.

Vandoles wrote: These are just ideas. I'm just offering feedback. Don't kill me for it. And I do recognize most forum-goers are orgnaized rvr players and /or hardcore, while most casual players do not come here to discuss balance. So I expect not a lot of understanding.

You're absolutely right about this one.

There is a pug scenario that you can queue for with a friend (or on your own) which will allow you to only face up against other pug players

Cimba wrote:
Creating an open warband doesn't cost you anything, so why should you be entitled to more rewards? You pointed out yourself that people don't listen therefore the usefullness of open warbands has to be questioned. In this rvr feedback post someone pointed out that you can't rely on open warbands at all. So again why should the leader of such an accumulation of solo players be rewarded above everyone else?

Aside from that I still think you may got a point. Afaik there is really no incentive to open up my group. Afaik casuals would just soak up a lot of renown while their only real use is as meat shields (due to the lack of quick communication). But they fulfill that role just fine outside the group. This is of course a condescending point of view.
Anyway I'm not sure if this should be changed. IMO the majority of the weight is upon the organized warbands and I'm assumung they are getting their contribution up anyway.

That's the thing, a leader who just invites a bunch of people does not really cost him anything, so he shouldn't get extra rewards. A leader, who puts the effort into organizing people and guiding them, deserves extra rewards. Have you ever led an open warband? The effort is colossal, the amount of bullshit you deal with - just so. Basically, extra rewards would lead to people WANTING to lead warbands well. Unfortunately you are right, it does not prevent some people from earning rewards just because they invited someone, but let's face it, that's 1 guy. How much does 1 guy having higher contribution affect your chances of getting genesis?

Cimba wrote:

Don't get me wrong but shamans move as fast as you do on their mount. Why don't you turn around when you see them? I have been playing solo alot recently. And I loose to almost all solo classes on my BW because I'm to lazy to put on solo equip and spec accordingly. Still I get around just fine.
Just because you see an enemy doesn't mean you have to attack him. Especially if you're solo and know that you don't have much hope of winning. Pick your fights.

Shamans more often than not have the range to jump you, unless you pull of lightning fast reflexes. Maybe you are onto something here, reduction of range?

And the problem here is that you cannot pick your fights. The only people roaming in the rvr lakes are shamans, squigs and WEs, who will kill you and prevent you from playing unless you're grouped up, with friends and organized.

Cimba wrote: What you're suggesting is already in place from my point of view. When I play solo I usually see two premades facing each other with some randoms added in. Depending on the scenarios randoms can have a smaller or bigger impact on the result.

Yes, I've happened upon two premades before. 1 out of every 2-3 scenarios. The other 3 are literally unplayable because I cannot cause damage or even get out of my spawn. I accept that it may be less of an issue than I make it out to be, but I don't like it that much that it's an issue of random chance whether a scenario is for afking in or actually playing.

peterthepan3 wrote:There is a pug scenario that you can queue for with a friend (or on your own) which will allow you to only face up against other pug players

I know, but doesn't it make more sense for there to be a PREMADE scenario that PREMADES can join to face other premades?

Since matching premade to premade is the intention, instead of pug to pug.

Or a balance, several pickup ones, several premade ones.

Feels like there being a pug scenario is just a bone thrown to people to stay in the game so premades can keep farming them.

I don't get what your point is: there is a scenario that you can queue for that has no premades whatsoever, i.e. you can avoid premades altogether in scenarios if you queue just for this scenario.

Caledor Woods currently exists as the premade-only scenario, but given that most people/premades queue for all scenarios it doesn't pop any more than any other map would.

Mostly that it's one scenario that we are all thrown towards. And while you're guaranteed on it to be pug vs pug, on the others you're not guaranteed to be premade vs premade. So less scenarios for premades would mean more of a chance of premade vs premade (which is what I'd like to see, premades fighting other premades).

Either way, the scenario thing is by far the least of my concerns. And I'm sure although most casuals don't like being forced into ONE scenario, it's not their biggest problem.

It's a delicate issue as if there are no premades queuing on the other side, there runs the risk of being very slow scenario pops for premades. To the best of my knowledge, many/most pug players seem to be very happy with the pug scenario. I think adding any more than one into circulation may begin to have bad knock-on effects.

But you said it yourself, most people queue all. If that were the case and that would mean little change for pugs, wouldn't it then have little change for premades and their queues?

And you're saying if one premade is queueing and no premade is queueing on the other side, there will be no scenario pop. Shouldn't that be right though? Unless there's people willing to face premades or other premades, the premade will end up in a steamroll with several people forced to afk at the spawn point. The premade itself won't have that much fun either.

But again, we're getting diverted from the general topic, that is considering some minor 1v1/small scale changes to make the game a tad more casual friendly and more fun for everyone.

I hope that OP is prepared to face the thing when there will be only pugs: Sides are unbalanced and there only one counterplay for it - teamplay. You will never get it from pugs. So be prepared to get ****ed by sorc-bw,magus-engi,we-wh when your tank and healer are 100ft away or just don't give a **** about you and that you need help from them. Welcome to original pug WAR