Return of Reckoning

Hello engineers !

This topic is not a proposal, no need to debunk it, just post your vision of engineer and your ideas.

it's been a while i thought about how engineer could be balanced from my POV.

I've tested the all 3 path, with different mix and different builds. Both from a solo or group perspective.

Azarael and all dev made a great work with engineer, but still not really balanced IMO. Some aspect are OP and some aspect still weak or useless , especially from a group perspective.

I'll try to identify what's OP or useless here and gives how i would change it.

Note: all of my idea are already in the database , so nothing to create for dev. (I Used skaven ability, or old abilities from beta files that I've already gave them)

PATH OF RIFLEMAN

This path is the one that doesn't need much more now.

Since range bonus has been reduced to +25% it seems more fair. The only thing to change is bring back sniper CD to 5 sec.

PATH OF GRENADIER

This path is the one that need a lot of work.

As we mention in other thread, this path suffer lack of burst, direct aoe damage to be efficient.
But this is the path that deserve to be the premade/group tree.

This is the most mobile path, and with adjustement it could be really good.

First thing i'd change is make firebomb a PBAOE attack.

Then let look at the tree :

Strafin run is good but effect need to be changed. Sticky bomb doesn't worth much.

I'd change Strafin run effect for :

Pepper Bomb
25 Action Points
0 - 65 ft range
1s cast
30s cooldown

You lob a grenade packed full of a noxious choking powder, dealing 150 Corporeal damage to your enemy and silencing them for 5 seconds, making them unable to use magic.

There's enough silence on order realm I also thought of getting inspiration from warlock skaven engineer .

If you replace actual strafin run effect for skaven warlock's doomrocket effect .
That would also be good for engineer and gives napalm grenade more sense combined with this ability .

Strafin Run
Path of the grenadier
40 Action Points
2 seconds cast
30 second CD

Fires off a projectile at a target’s location. On impact it explodes, causing damage and knocking down anyone near the impact location. The kickback on these rockets also causes the Engineer to fall down momentarily.

Here a video of warlock engineer using doomrocket : (exemple at 1m05)
https://youtu.be/ffRobAxl9hw

Note : engineer and Warlock engineer have many similar abilities like some gadget that help group etc , and warlock got an ability like napalm :
- Death Globe – Condensing his Residual Charges, the Warlock Engineer forms a Death Globe and hurls it at a ground targeted location. The area around the impact becomes covered in bubbling warpfluid, causing ongoing damage to anyone in the area of effect. You can see here how powerful Death Globe is compared to napalm https://youtu.be/L8itJVccXWA look at yellow bubbling warpfluid

And change Sticky Bomb for :

Toss Bandolier
Path of the Grenadier
Cost 30 AP/sec
6 seconds cast
Range: 0-65 ft
15 second cooldown

You focus your three best grenade on your target, dealing 217 Corporeal Damage every 2 second during 6 seconds to your target and all enemies within 20 feets. The effect will end if you're losing your concentration or run out of action points.

Now look at the Tree's Tactic :

nothing is grenadier tactic increase really the power of grenades.

I'd switch Tracer Rounds from Tinkerer Path to grenadier path : adding 15% crit to grenadier would fit more this tree (would put it at 11 points in grenadier tree)

This would be enough to increase significatively the grenadier path.

Also, EA/mythic logic was that all rifle abilities are normal damage (sniper, Blunderblast etc) and all grenade abilities are corp damage so from this logic i'd change Fragmentation grenade to corp damage (which is the only greande to deal normal damage)


PATH OF TINKERER

This path need to be more directed to support build.

I won't change anything to tree abilities they are fine.
But let's take a look at tactics :

tinkerer really look for tactic that help the group :

tangling wire and concussive mine. Both of those tactic give a debuff that not supposed to have immune, which is great to help team mate without remove the possibility to Bump/silence/disarm etc the target.

Unfortunately, to use those debuff you have to use also a stun (concussive mine) and a root(tangling wire) which is not the desire effect by giving immune.
If you look at how other class can use aoe snare or Castime debuff they don't give immune to the target while engineer does.

To solve this, i'd remove the root from barble wire and give a aoe snare instead, and to keep a tactic that increase that ability, id change tangling wire for a damage on barble wire snare when target are moving. something like skaven .

i imagine something like this at 11 points in tinkerer tree.

Tangling wire
Path of Tinkerer
Tactic
Passive

A bundle of barbed netting hurled at engineer feets. When it hits, the netting expands to catch anyone in the area. The resulting tangled mess disables those caught in it. Attempting to wiggle out of the netting causes damages.

Check out my tangling wire effect here https://youtu.be/NhijFbvaMj8 (for exemple at 44 sec : only difference with skaven ability is that engineer wire has no range it stand at engineer feets like actual barbel wire)


To solve Concussive mine problem, id switch concussive mine effect with landmine effect : tactic would stun target when landmine would increase Castime.

Different buffs

Actually engineer chose armor buff cause he only have this one to chose : but why don't give a BS to force engineer to choose.
More risk/reward :

Bring back slow and steady buff :

Slow And Steady
25 Action Points
Instant cast
60s cooldown
No one can rush a Dwarf who's determined to take their time and do the job right. Your Ballistic Skill is increased by 62, but your run speed is reduced by 20%. Use this ability again to deactivate it. edit: this buff stack with pots , because it has a counter part (it take place instead of armor buff and it gives a selfsnare

This buff will take place of armor engineer buff, dps engineer that want to increase their dps would have to take some risk, that could be something interresting

This could increase Rifleman build power but also give it some counter part.

I also thought of adding Runes :

All engineer noticed that they're not chose by premade because of lack of mobility and too much tactic to slot to help it (expert skirmisher or well oiled machine), when redeploy cost is really high..

i propose to add 3 different runes (buff)

1rst rune : Engineer can instant cast his turret (no ap changes)

2nd rune : Engineer can cast turret on the move and redeploy ap is reduced to 0

3rd rune : Engineer do not lose 4 stack instantly when his turret is broken, but slowly lose 1 stack every 2 seconds (still lose 4 stack if engineer change to another turret)

Of course, engineer can only have one rune at a time.

This would free one tactic slot while giving 3 possibilities to deal with turret.


Reduce Buff turret
To end with this, after all those up, i'd look at turret buff :

With all those changes, no need to keep turret buff that high. I'd make all buff to 25% bonus

Gun turret : increase range for 25% (5% every 2 seconds), and increase engineer damages for 25% (instead of current 40%)

Bombardement turret : increase damage for 25% , and gives 5% crit (1% per stack) and give grenadier ability can be casted on the move .

Flameturret : increase damage for 25% (instead of current 40%) increase dodge/disrupt for 25% (instead of current 32%)and reduce range for 25% (instead of current 40%) of his normal value.
Instead of this insane dodge disrupt buff , why don't give toughness bonus from turret (+150 toughness , 30 per stack) and work on magnet for a smaller dodge disrupt buff : when you use magnet (because this is the moment you are vulnerable to both melee and rdps) you focus on your capacity to increase your dodge and disrupt for 20%/25%? during the next "X" seconds .

more than only nerf damage (compensate by different boost), it also make engineer gameplay more dynamic (10 sec to reach full buff instead of current 16 sec)

Here my vision of engineer, my ideas.

I'd like to read yours if someof you have other vision/ideas

Thanks for reading guys !

i find pepper bomb to be not needed since the AM covers the 5s silence, RP, WL and SW have a 4s one.

The game dont need more aoe bursts, it need LESS HEALING from healers: in low ters they are immortal and in higher they permadispell everything unless 40 ppl focus one to kill it lol.

My idea would be that grenadier do DOT aoe dmg BUT have some dispel resistance to his dot as tactic slot (mid tier purchasable).

Pepper Bomb
25 Action Points
0 - 65 ft range
1s cast
20s cooldown

You lob a grenade packed full of a noxious choking powder, dealing 150 Corporeal damage to your enemy while tickling and coffing make em lose their concentration: all abilities build time is increased by 20% for the duration of the effect.

no it is just too op you can change it like this:
Pepper Bomb
25 Action Points
0 - 65 ft range
1s cast
20s cooldown
You lob a grenade packed full of a noxious choking powder, dealing 150 Corporeal damage to your enemy while tickling and coffing make em lose their concentration: all abilities build time is increased by 20% for the duration of the effect.

IN EXCHANGE: flashbang grenade made instan cast instead 0.5 sec cast. this give us a reliable interrupt while not being too OP

I'd switch Tracer Rounds from Tinkerer Path to grenadier path : adding 15% crit to grenadier would fit more this tree (would put it at 11 points in grenadier tree)

This would be enough to increase significatively the grenadier path.

Also, EA/mythic logic was that all rifle abilities are normal damage (sniper, Blunderblast etc) and all grenade abilities are corp damage so from this logic i'd change Frangementation grenade to corp damage (which is the only greande to deal normal damage

on this i fully agreee. A 15% more crit for a afk pullbot is not a wise choice! grenadier would benefit more on firebomb!

I would make the thing clear: engi bomb spec should be a mobie debuffer/disturb/dotter, not an AOE silencer/permacritbot.

If you buff slightly DOT damages and lower a little complexive heals (especially in low tiers recalculating scale valors) it would become awesome!

Dont like The idea of the ballistik buff because it wont stack with pot.
I give a big +1 for grenadier changes

Asherdoom wrote:The game dont need more aoe bursts, it need LESS HEALING from healers: in low ters they are immortal and in higher they permadispell everything unless 40 ppl focus one to kill it lol.

My idea would be that grenadier do DOT aoe dmg BUT have some dispel resistance to his dot as tactic slot (mid tier purchasable).

Pepper Bomb
25 Action Points
0 - 65 ft range
1s cast
20s cooldown

You lob a grenade packed full of a noxious choking powder, dealing 150 Corporeal damage to your enemy while tickling and coffing make em lose their concentration: all abilities build time is increased by 20% for the duration of the effect.

no it is just too op you can change it like this:
Pepper Bomb
25 Action Points
0 - 65 ft range
1s cast
20s cooldown
You lob a grenade packed full of a noxious choking powder, dealing 150 Corporeal damage to your enemy while tickling and coffing make em lose their concentration: all abilities build time is increased by 20% for the duration of the effect.

IN EXCHANGE: flashbang grenade made instan cast instead 0.5 sec cast. this give us a reliable interrupt while not being too OP

I'd switch Tracer Rounds from Tinkerer Path to grenadier path : adding 15% crit to grenadier would fit more this tree (would put it at 11 points in grenadier tree)

This would be enough to increase significatively the grenadier path.

Also, EA/mythic logic was that all rifle abilities are normal damage (sniper, Blunderblast etc) and all grenade abilities are corp damage so from this logic i'd change Frangementation grenade to corp damage (which is the only greande to deal normal damage

on this i fully agreee. A 15% more crit for a afk pullbot is not a wise choice! grenadier would benefit more on firebomb!

I would make the thing clear: engi bomb spec should be a mobie debuffer/disturb/dotter, not an AOE silencer/permacritbot.

If you buff slightly DOT damages and lower a little complexive heals (especially in low tiers recalculating scale valors) it would become awesome!

Your pepper bomb ability already exist : this is concussive mine (+50% build time)

Grenadier is not a debuffer/disturb path , this is more tinkerer path .

DOT is why grenadier is not competitive : easily outhealed , too much negate by toughness , no burst this is all fluff damage .

I tired to understand what would make engineer picked up in a premade . Due to new mobile bombardment buff , this path should be the one that can fit a premade .


@daknall : yes didn't thought about it , maybe it'd be a buff that stack with pot : the self snare and the armor buff removed while using this BS buff is already a big counterpart .


@shaggy: I know I that a lot of class have already a silence , just wanted to add an ability that'd serve the group and give one more reason why to chose engineer in a party .

Im not married to any of the stats/ability I wrote , if you have your own ideas that would be great too

Some aoe direkt dmg would be rly cool on grenadier. The dots aoe dots from engi magus are very useless atm

Daknallbomb wrote:Some aoe direkt dmg would be rly cool on grenadier. The dots aoe dots from engi magus are very useless atm

I know I can put 6 or 7 dot on your dps sham you'd still /laugh at me !

Too many reason that makes dot only weak : - negate by toughness , - cleansable , - easyliy outhealed

shaggyboomboom wrote:i find pepper bomb to be not needed since the AM covers the 5s silence, RP, WL and SW have a 4s one.

If there's enough silence on order realm I also thought of getting inspiration from warlock skaven engineer .

If you replace actual strafin run effect for skaven warlock's doomrocket effect :

Strafin Run
Path of the grenadier
40 Action Points
2 seconds cast
30 second CD
Fires off a projectile at a target’s location. On impact it explodes, causing damage and knocking down anyone near the impact location. The kickback on these rockets also causes the Engineer to fall down momentarily.


That would also be good for engineer and gives napalm grenade more sense combined with this ability .

for me you canot pretend to buff damage because will become an escalation where every cass ask more dmg in respect of the excessicvve healeing tossed out. rather i would make a grenadier DOT killer and heavy debuffer whle nerfing general healing of all classes to compensate. if you think about it even in t4 ith dispels and aoe spam heals you need a whole warband to focus someone to kill him lol. btw mine was just a suggestion.

Asherdoom wrote:for me you canot pretend to buff damage because will become an escalation where every cass ask more dmg in respect of the excessicvve healeing tossed out. rather i would make a grenadier DOT killer and heavy debuffer whle nerfing general healing of all classes to compensate. if you think about it even in t4 ith dispels and aoe spam heals you need a whole warband to focus someone to kill him lol. btw mine was just a suggestion.

I'm not asking for any buff damage , if you ready my post at the end I suggest to reduce damage buff from turret (+25% instead of current 40%)

You can't ask for a nerf of global heal to up a class.

Grenadier path has been discussed a lot of time when balance forums was still actives . A result of lack of direct damage in this path , actually a aoe spec based on dot is not viable , you can't have high damage score but it's all fluff damage . Many of engineer have tried this spec.

In my idea , just think about adding more direct damage to a aoe spec not to buff damages .