Return of Reckoning

Since the threads about renown skill has been reopen and for the majority ppl seems to thinkg that the RD problem is anyway linked to how the CC in the game are currently be handle i think it would be interesting discuss about the lengh of duration of all CC and possible find and fix the holes in the system

This is a wide changes for all CC in the game.

I gona do a little of breakdown here as it is required.

1.4.7 patch ninja changes a lot of CC into game:
-all DD KD duration (+1 sec)
-all RDD KD duration(+1 sec)
-Mara/WL moral 1 root duration( x2 )
-WH/WE self put stag duration (x2 and immunity from 30sec to 10 sec)

The currently situation is as follow
-All st KD in game are 3 sec (exept IB/BG)
-All st silence and disarm (not morales) are 3 second(wp/dok maybe other are 4 sec)
-mara/wl root is 10 sec
.WH/WE stag for 6 sec immunity only for 10 ( 10 sec immunity -6 duration = only 4 sec of true immmunity !!!)

What was pre 1.4.7 is as follow

-all tank had 3sec KD (exept IB/BG)
-all melee had 2 sec KD (this mean also positional/conditional as choppa/slayer/WH/WE)
-all rdps KD had 2 sec KD (this also for mara, we rkd and not only for bw/SW)
-silence and disarm 3 sec both on dd/rdd
-WH/WE stag 3sec/ 30 sec immunity

Problems
for what wrote above there are 2 main problems atm with the current CC duration:

1-no differece between tanks KD and damage dealers KD: this is important as the difference meant choices! and also meant tank had to take KD instead other tools. This leaded to the BO/SM problem about their KD be so high (problem that there isn't here). But currently with all the KD like this the game is filled with an abbundance of 3sec KD and some tanks can totally avoid take the KD which is the strongest form of CC in the game which also lead to problem two

2-The duration of KD and silence/disarm should not be the same, pre 1.4.7 disarrm and silence on dd/rdd were 1 sec higer than their KD. This was meant to have to give a for all situation CC (on tanks with 3 sec KD) and some specific CC regarding what you are facing(still 3 sec like disarm or silence but less strong form of crow controll).
Atm if you can use a 3 sec KD is always a better pick than a silence /disarm /and now even 3sec stag basically.
This should had been only worth for tanks (due the fact they have to deal with a lot of stuff regard their group).
Silence/disarm atm give the same immunity of a stag or a KD and being a 3 sec KD a lot better cuz is basically a root(not breakable ) + silence/disarm every DD class both melee or ranged with access to KD is >>> than any with only acces to disarm of root. (aka BW have 3 sec kD and 3 sec silece vs sorc only having 3 sec disarm ; what's wrong here is the KD that should be 2 second while both disarm and silence should eb 3 sec)

Solution
My idea is to discuss about bring back the old values so that an ok solution can be found to the RD thread so that RD will be less a must if the CC in game get toned down a bit + while also fix the aboundace of some CC and also some holes in the system like WH/WE self punt/stag. Especially WH/WE stag is creating a looping form of CC right know where you get stag for 6 seconds with 10 sec of immunity so you just have 4 sec of true immunity when the stag end and you re being blocked from act for 6 sec. This mean that you can be hard lock down multiple time by multiple wh/we or even 6 sec stag + 4 sec of true immunity+ 3 sec KD + moral root etc
This is crazy enough to make everyone quite the game and should get fixed the fast it can imo.

Ratio
-Alleviate the CC problem so that RD is no more needed / can be soft nerf with out worry about cc being so strong
-balance better KD vs all other form of cc
-Promote more hard choice on tanks due 3+sec KD being only accessible to them and so more build diversity

Summary per specific point
So what i want discuss is (in regard sub topic)

1-should dd/rdd have less effective form of KD than tanks to improve the tank pick up diversity?
2-should WH/WE stag immunity get fix or remain a hole in the system?
3-should mara/wl moral 1 be put in his place again for the same 2 point above (in the problematic part) related to they being DD and not tank and tanks have champions challenge in this caseso bringing on the field soemthing which is alredy in tank department and have it good enough as them? ( as both have for moral form of the same ST root and mara/Wl is definetly better then tanks one)

Glabal summary
should the CC return to what was before the 1.4.7 which imo was a better balanced system and so like:

tanks KD = 3sec
melee KD = 2 sec
RDK = 2 sec
SIlence/disarm (not moral) = 3 sec
Mara/WL M1 root = 5 sec
WH/WE stag = 3 sec with 30 of immunity

Disclaimer:
- WE/WH do not need a 6 sec stag for hide; this is a 1 vs 1 issue as you only stag 1 ppl while the rest of the world can still prevent you from hide and so such talks should not be allowed (tough the real problem is the immunity duration but regardless 6 sec stag tank and pounce like skill on healers is nothing to underestimate and should be look at as this should be an escape tool, the fact it can be also used as an offensivly is a flaw)

-From this thread i left out chosen/KOBS stag and magus/engi stag which need to be look upon on their own but there is no distinciton between st or aoe KD for exemple.
I also left out all the aoe snare in game and all tanks CC morales; those also should probably recive a look but it's too much to discuss for 1 thread alredy. I also can miss some other ninja changes from 1.4.7 (because they are not in patch note and maybe some other stuff got affected aswell); i bringed what i think where the most relevant changes to cc in game from 1.4.7 and what we should look up about Crow controll vs Resolute defense.

-Choppa/slayer conditional KD should be 2 sec and not 3 because even if requirer rage it is undefitable hence it is balance with the cost of the condition and so it should not be an exeption from the 2 sec kd for all DD (+ rage tactic allow you to ignore partially the condition as you no longer trade dmg from meccanic for undefitable KD).

Moving to discussions.

We don't care what other people believe. Here, you either debunk OP with proper arguments, or stay out of the discussion - Penril

RD will still be just as prolifically used at least on RDPS, even if you nerfed CC harder than what you are purposing. Snares are a large portion of why it's picked up. You also use it to not get snared into punted in the backlines, or M1 mara/WL/tank(not cc) root, so really even if KD didn't exist I would still be running RD at least on my RDPS in any kind of serious play. The thing you will see most of the times is a RDPS being caught just popping RD then hitting flee for the free reset.

edit: I'll just leave it to this, I don't really think what I had here is going to do much but derail anyways.

Shaman and AM have a 5s specced, non moral silence fyi.

yes snares are a big part of the problem tough in both way, if both you and enemy are snaed is equal to both as if both were not snared in first place; so cleanse and speed proc make the trick here; an anti snare tool such RD was problematic becasue in fact ignore snares is something melee have and tank not. Something in game that have no core immunity for a reason because is a big part of the game balance. Most anyway have to do with aoe snares aka BO/kobs or other snares which should not be so performign aka 10 sec squig/sw self punt should be probable less than 10 sec (same apply to morales) ....it's a bit too much and so i tough discuss everything in 1 thread was impossible, i tough still some problem can be solved regard difference in KD and silence/disarm to make all more equal and remove the abbundance especially on melee train of 2-3 KD per party. Since KD is the best of the cc in game as form.
And maybe give a shoot to IB/BG since tehy have the best KD in all game.

regard runy yes some KD will be 1 sec exept that you suppose to have a tank with a 3+ sec KD which is the same( and destru have a 5 sec KD on BG); tank KD suppose not to be touch with this suggestion so this will only force to pick better the cc inside the party rather than 1 chosen/kobs then another 1 or 2 on melee; if you want KD which is the best cc in game you should pick carefully.
As said this is to fix a bit the abbundance of cc to soft the need of RD.... if then this goes well nothing block me or anyone to propose a snare nerf tread.

What a pleasant post to read, I must say, no puns.
My biggest gripe with it is that - it fails to answer my first question that came to mind - why?
I don't really buy the whole idea of tanks having to take choices - therefore deserve longer CC. Can you elaborate on this matter a bit more, perhaps?
Most mdps have to spec for their CC too, WE/WH or WL/Mar stun for example, or it is conditional like "after parry" or "wait 10sec to get berserk", same with rdps. Heck, all healers have some form of hard CC, both inmate and specced, why it's only tanks that have to have their little fun?

small rant, coundn't hold it to myself so - I spoilered it away

There are a lot smarter people than me on here. Maybe one of you can shed some light for me.

Certain CC abilities trigger immunity to all CC. Why?

Why does Silence make the target immune to an Anti-Kite like Stagger that breaks on damage?

Neither ability does damage to the target, only takes them out of the fight until someone hits them or time runs out on the CC.

I never understood that.

@scrilian : took a while you asked me something very complex to explain.

1-first problem is abbundace of KD, since melee have a 3 sec version some tanks can afford to not spec for it because they synergy better and party comp dont loose anything becasue melee train have other self core KD especially choppa/slayer one.

2- second problem is disarm/silence be worst than KD if they have the same value, Most of silence/disarm are 3 sec because 1.4.7 didn't change them mostly and those who got changed are very hard type of cc; 3 sec will be more mercifull to deal with
as a 4+ sec cc is something no one likes (6 sec stag is a think because is magus/engi, becasue it break on touch and because magus/engi itself can remove teh stag).

3- Third problem is have silence and disarm of 4+ sec is really a lot (then ppl wonder why RD..)
so less time crow controlled mean less need of RD kind of ability

4- Another problem is give trade in, as what would happen if sm/Bo should spec for KD?? eh they would either loose something on left or right mastery (atm they dont becasue they dont need to, even after the KD drop in the mastery they just ignore the KD because CD decrease and aoe snare on one mastery and stat steal onto another one. (so ye bring alternativea and the choice matter).

5-bring out IB/BG as they have 4-5 sec KD but because of the abbundace of 3+ sec KD you dont need an hard KD, yes you can use it but you can have alredy 2 x 3 sec on melee and the tanks can just close the gap in dmg burst (which is better because they always have the dmg more while instead the KD have a KD)...if 1 or both tanks can repolace them with other tools this make build party too easy since some members can easily drop KD for other stuff (basically is too easy swap the utility inside the party when the melee train can afford it. That's one of the reasons why IB/BG dont get the spot ( another one is kobs/chosen punt tactic along with others and why melee train are so trong currently, because they can deal with tanks critical choice by bring a coevalent version of KD for free mostly since it will anyway make the way in the build regardless) .


-Well in regard melee issue; after you are being cc you get immunity, melee have a snare immunity and tank can load block and hold the line so range stuff should not be an issue and the most basic scene in small scale is melee train group wise. WB is more about comp and synergy and is more variegated at least on destru side... cant really talk for wb on order

i think that if melee loose 3 sec KD, some tanks will have to spec for it or play with inferior kd this lead to some quite conseguence:

1-use disarm/silence when the only one KD is not avaible or bring more tank with 3sec KD or jsut 1 IB/BG for for 1 really hard KD and that's it

2-so less use of KD in general because on the contrary currently you can also face party with 3-4 x 3+ sec KD so that ther is a KD avaiable on most target swap.

3-kd on tanks is on the mid mastery which usually is the def one so this mean spec into that and not into maybe an offensive mastery (and so on choice will have an impact in the party dps vs party ammount of cc)

4-reducing the rkd to oirignal 2 sec will make destru absence of easy to use and get rkd less painfull realmwise without hard nerf them.

5- regarding the spec matter wl/choppa/slayer dont have to spec, only WE/WH and mara for aoe one, of these wl one is handled by the pet which can be used to kd ppl from behind make it better in reality if you trick ppl round withby being smart or by their need to go somewhere, wh/We can pop it from when exit from hide; this make it a lot easier to land; mara is an aoe tool and it as always be 2 sec and it didn't changed.

6-make kd more tank friendly mean the awarness is going to be on the tank and tank gona be the source of most cc in game as they were designed designed and not viceversa where mdps do the more dmg than tank but can access to the same best CC form in game

-> KD

if they want a KD they get an inferior one to use when the tank one is in CD so this involve also the player skill: "when use the KD"

As you wanted then when you arrive on rdps the KD will still be 3+ sec if the tank do it and not waste it around.
As have multiple and swapable 3+ sec KD allow the party to make more mistake and make easier build party around BO/SM/CH/KOBS.
This apply to runy too, you know it have the tactic for KD slot? dont use a melee KD use a tank one (which this change would not change). This also remove the min-max for runy as if there are less 3+ sec kd in game he may decide either to not use anymore the tactic becasue KD will be less a problem or depsite the fact that 3 sec KD will be less used and more will be silence he will still slot the tactic because he fear BG KD (this all create more build diversity) and is a step to remove all comes party set up.

7-make the use of silence/disarm more smart is also 1 of the aim as you can't allow all to have a different immunity so that ppl would just get loop in CC sequence ( kd, punt and silce/disarm, root) you then need to make choice matter regarding the "when" and "the situation" to use them, so for some situations when the tank KD is in CD is better a disarm of 3 sec if target is snaed or you want prolong the absence of his pressure instead use a 2 sec KD or you want use it instead because is undefitable in case of choppa/slayer but it will only last for 2 sec ( it will be hard to pick ......but ye a tank KD will always be better but by make these limited to 2x tank in every group you either get these 2 on the tanks and loose something else from tanks or live with 2 sec KD and gain something else from your tanks; which mean (dps can also drop their KD and spec differently (this all lead to buidl diversity and make harder version of IB/BG KD more important).

9-this hit both realm equally as bpth realm are heavy melee train in small scale and both are benefing fromt he fact that BO/SM can go free of KD (if they had to drop something because their choppa/slayer lost teh 3 sec KD im sure IB/BG would had an easier life to get the party slot.

This also make balance the tanks easier as it create critical choices for everyone (gain/loose something) with more stric build and more stric build are easier to balance regarding quantity and quality of the tanks offensive/defensive/supporting tools.
It should also make generally the seoncs you are cc "lower" than now and so the cc syste even if used very well should be more enjoiable even for who get crow controlled.

I certainly don't oppose trimming dps knock downs back to 2 seconds. It would make the tank knock downs more valuable and would potentially (though i doubt it) make the other softer cc that dps classes have more attractive.