Return of Reckoning

Identify the issue:

There are a lot of Tactics currently on the Engi which are mostly simply bad. Or they don’t really do anything worth a tactic slot. One of these Tactics is “Stopping Power” you can found it here. http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=eng ... ;;;0:0:0:0:
It basically gives the Hipshot a small knockback power. Not like the BO Knockback, like I smash you to the moon. The thing is, that the Engi already has a Knockback Ability. The Concussion Grenade, which has 65feet range but, does the same thing without eating a tactical spot.

Why it is an issue:

The only positive thing is, that with Hipshot you can apply the knockback on 100/125 feet. But why would you do that? If you want to shoot more on the target, then why put it out of your Range?
I believe that this Tactic is a relic from closed Beta or early live. Back in the day there were no immunities on Knockback and Gun blast, Snipe and Focused fire had a minimum range to target. So you could only shoot with Gun blast if the Target was in 5-100 feet. For that a second ST Knockback might be a good thing.

Overall the Tactic is not broken. But no one uses it.

Solely on Engi and not on Magus:
Also there is no counterpart on Magus, so he doesn’t have that Tactic. Meaning the proposal is for the Engi only.

Solve the Issue:

Being in the Rifle Mastery the Tactic should be something which helps the Rifle path. Meaning, standing still and shooting at enemies.

Solution 1:
Replace Hipshot with „Path of the Scout/Aimin’ Quickly“. The Squig Herder and Shadow Warrior have a tactic in their Single-Target-stand-still-tree that reduces their standard 2 sec Cast Range attack into a 1 sec Cast Attack. The Description says: Reduces Cast times of Eagly Eye by 1 second. But cost is increased by 20AP
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=sw; ... ;;;0:0:0:0:



The SH and SW I talked to rarely use that tactic. Both classes are these running, fleeing, speed proccing guys who use their instant and cast on the move abilities. They don’t stand still for a while, and when then only to use their focused Fire Equivalence “Lots o’ Arrers”.

For the Engi it would be the option to spam Gun blast to 1 secs. Albeit with increased AP costs. I tested it on a low level SW and it really drains your AP fast, even if you only shoot NPCs with it. An Engi could compensate it with Extra Ammo. Still Extra Ammo tics every 2 seconds and can’t keep your increased AP costs in check. Also you then need to equip it and block another tactics slot.

Would it be OP?

I don’t think so. The big plus of Gun blast is, that you can apply “Hollow Points” with it.
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=eng ... ;;;0:0:0:0:
But Hollow Points doesn’t stack. It has a 5 sec dot time. If you go Snipe and Gun blast you keep it up most of the time.
So if you can cast Gun blast every second you are actually reducing the effectivity of Hollow Points. Of course you can choose a different target after each Gun Blast, but why would you do this?

Rifle build is about Single Target Damage to get it down. If you want to do damage to everyone throw a Frag Grenade.

Also it might interfere with “Expert Skirmisher”. Engi tactic that halves cast times if the enemy is 20 feet near you. Like on top of you, and also the enemy you are targeting, not just a destroy player. That would reduce the cast time of Gun Blast to 0.5 seconds. Imo that doesn’t change a thing. It is still only possible to cast a Gun blast once in one Global Cooldown. Sure you can cast it in 0.5 secs and then run around for 1 second. But you don’t run very far in 1 sec if you have a BO at your head.

So this is Solution 1. Make it like the SW/SH Tactic on the same spot in the tree.

Solution 2:

The Magus has a tactic that reduces the cooldown of the Magus version of Hipshot from 10 secs to 3 secs. Meaning you can build it quite good into your rotation. I don’t play a Magus, so I don’t know how often it is used. On the Magus thought there is this tactic to let you hit with your Hipshot and Gun blast two targets at once. Meaning the reduce of this Cooldown is ever more fun on the Magus.

On the Engi there is no such double effectivity of Hipshot. But still a reduce of the Cooldown to 3 secs mean you can build Hipshot into your rotation. Hip shot is a +25% more damage version of Gun blast per second. Meaning Gun blast need 2 secs to cast and do with Medium Ballistic Skill and 9 points in Mastery 437 Damage. Gun Blast has 2 sec cast time and does 710 damage, with is calculated down 355 for each second of casting. So Hipshot does per second +25% of Damage.

The Bonus of Hipshot is, that it is instant, meaning you can cast it on the move.

I doubt you can chase a shaman through Praag and kill him with a Hipshot each 3 second, but you can try at least.

So this is Solution 2. Just copy it with the Magus tactic “Swift Flames”.

Moving to discussions.

Both suggestions have their merits, but the second one is the stronger option.

Reducing gunblast to a 1 second cast upping the damage puts it in direct competition with firebomb and grenade ST. You would have 2 builds largely the same using a 1s cast with poor AP conditions. It becomes a situation of more of the same, and while 1s gb would have it its own plus and minuses to a firebomb build, option two gives a better overall change.

Giving rifle the access to a much need quality of life change for smoother rotation, a bit more mobile dps, and it provides nice bonuses to side specs for both grenade, and tinker. Which is an important consideration for a lower tier tactic. It also meshes better with existing rifle tactics like hollow points, and the end tree AP tactic.

I like both. Though im not a great theorycrafter I like both ideas.

Calling the Engineers here for an opinion on the matter.

Or maybe some SW/SH for Solution 1.

Or some Magi for Solution 2.

As these have these tactics in the past already.

Glorian wrote:Calling the Engineers here for an opinion on the matter.

Or maybe some SW/SH for Solution 1.

Or some Magi for Solution 2.

As these have these tactics in the past already.

I play an sw, and i have tested the "solution 1" many times: in solo play i think its barely useable, u'll lose to much AP. In group play however, if your healers use AP tactics/skills (like ancestors blessing, master fune of fury, refreshing radiance) the "solution 1" is very strong (with the armor debuff of course).

So I don't feel like Engis will appreciate Solution 1. Just my opinion.

I would like to state as a magus in regards to solution 2 that Swift Flames is not a frequently used tactic, even in duel specs.

As for solution 1, if i remember correctly, back in live it was fairly common for SW/SH in late game gear to switch to 1sec cast-time builds, which were pretty damn viable (and painful). Of course, the lethality of such builds was based on two factors, the massive AP regen which came from gear along with the native tactics/abilities which allowed them to unleash a barrage for ten seconds straight and UF, which allowed them to capitalize on those 10 seconds with a 2000 raw dps for a whopping 20.000 raw damage total in 10 seconds (crits excluded from the calculation) that's at least 3 (theoretical) dead magi/sorcs right there. Of course the engie only has half the tactics that would make the maintainance of such a build possible (35% reduced costs, but no AP regen on crit) and they no longer have UF (Thank Tzeentch for that, i hope Armored Plating is next), thus it may not be as blatantly OP as it used to be.

Thus, i believe that you may as well go for solution 1, because it would be fun to melt the Gun Blast button for once (instead of the keg button, which was melted and re-assigned 17 times already)

I believe the long range knockback was useful to support others, clear keep walls, and such. However, as has been said, immunity timers didn't used to be a thing. It leaves the tactic almost useless.

I don't think adding more AP costs to rifleman is going to work well. Hipshot itself isn't of much use. Perhaps the tactic could add a buff effect to the skill? Something like +crit or +armor pen on all attacks for a short time.

Glorian wrote:Identify the issue:

The only positive thing is, that with Hipshot you can apply the knockback on 100/125 feet. But why would you do that? If you want to shoot more on the target, then why put it out of your Range?

The point is you have access to two at range ST knockbacks with that tactic slotted on a single class. One conducted at 65 feet 1 sec cast with a 10 sec cooldown and another at 100/125ft instant cast with a 10 sec cooldown. That has a lot of value especially if you have multiple targets closing in on you such as scary mdps. The max engagement range doesn't really matter because it will be used on targets trying to gap close.

I could see this tactic used in a roaming situation where you don't have the protection of keep walls and you need to push back mdps away from you. You could also push player's off of cliff's which needs instant attention and the 65ft 1 sec concussion grenade doesn't have the response time or range to do that. All your damage tactic's don't matter if your dead.

The two solution's you provided are overhaul's of the tactic itself from a utility tactic to a direct damage increase tactic. I really don't think engineer's need a damage increase. Making comparison's to the magus and engineer is problematic because there is a TON of differences. If your going to make comparison's with the magus to the engineer understand that the magus don't get the auto attack that the engineer does. So a mirroring of swift flames (Solution 2) would in my opinion make engineer's drastically overpowered.

The bottom tier tactic's/3 point tactic's are also suppose to be viable in off-spec's as well as main spec's so it is not solely for the rifleman builds. You can go 15 points into another Tinkerer or Grenadier tree and easily pick up Stopping power tactic.

I strongly disagree with the two proposed damage increaser solutions. I think Stopping power tactic should remain a utility tactic. Now that doesn't mean I don't think Stopping power tactic couldn't use some love but a fundamental re-purposing of the tactic to take away it's utility role? I strongly disagree with.

Here are some different solution's to maintain the utility role of stopping power:

Make Stopping power not trigger immunities but is effected by immunities similar to how Winds of insanity works on the zealot.
I like the above a lot and think it's a good solution

Provide some dual purpose to the tactic to make it more attractive such as:
A percent chance on additional strikethrough with range ST knockback or
Straight up undefendable hip shot with range ST knockback.

Something that does not re-purpose the role of the tactic I could get behind. A complete overhaul of the tactic to something completely new or mirroring I cannot.