Return of Reckoning

I wanted to just see what others thought about this. I know there is typically resistance to anything that bucks against "the way it was on LIVE bro" but to me, this is something that hinders my excitement for ROR and something that I personally think would be a MASSIVE improvement to this game.

The removal of Set Bonuses.

Now, before you hit "quote" or "reply" and start flaming about this, that, or the other thing... Hear me out. Not JUST to remove set bonuses, but possible re-allocate those set bonuses into the various pieces of the set themselves in the form of more stats, more %s, etc.

The way I see it is, set bonuses only HINDER gear choice. When I think of optimal gearing for any of my classes, whats the first thing you usually look at? Set bonuses... What set bonuses can you take advantage of. Maybe its a combination of 3pc beastlord, 3 piece X set, and another set like Genesis. Well.... my question is WHY.

Several times when trying to farm new gear, ill get a new piece but guess what... I cant even use that new piece yet because I need atleast 2, or maybe 3 of that set to replace the lost benefits of losing another set.

This also is what makes MANY other pieces in the game sub-optimal... Like Lair loot that has interesting stats, or influence gear, etc.

In my humble opinion, the removal of set bonuses and a re-allocation of stats and benefits would make the game more enjoyable, more fun, and lead to more builds and customization never before seen in WAR/ROR. The ability to start stacking more of the things YOU want, rather than having, what feels like, your "optimal" gear picked out for you in virtue of what set bonuses are available and the current hierarchy of gear being very objective...

I hate running around the IC, seeing every other Chosen, or BG, or Mara running the SAME gear (more or less) and when I am farming a new piece of gear... Not feeling unique what so ever in my build choice or itemization choice because there are only so many ways to gear "optimally".

What you might find, is that with removing set bonuses and re-allocating some of that benefit onto each piece individually... the BEST combination of stats that YOU like might be 1 piece from VARIOUS sets... Like 1 piece Ruin with 1 piece Dominator combined with 1 piece of influence gear, etc. etc... It gives YOU a unique way to build depending on what YOU like and EACH PIECE you get now has value as a potential piece to use...

Personally, I think set bonuses kill gear options and customization and makes gearing FAR too linear.

What do you all think?

Öhm,Appearance Change? goes with almost all Parts of Armor and Weapons

You're basically referring to legendary uniques, something like in Diablo? I mean I think it worked there.. and while there is "BiS" gear in D3 too (I haven't played in at least a year so my info might be outdated), there is certainly some gear variation. I mean I think it would be cool, I'm just not sure it would do what you wanted it to. There will always be a Best in Slot (whether that be for a "dps" set vs a "healer" set for a healing archetype, for example); moving set bonuses to individual pieces doesn't necessarily change that.

Torquemadra wrote:Set bonuses are a double edged sword, you choose what you want and give up on others. Want main stat and not to use brute force freeing a tactic? You mix and match. Want a particular bonus? You stack the set.

Not going to change

First, thanks for responding. I recognize this is your project so its your call and your vision.

Second, this is disappointing to hear... Since as you continue to work on and release new sets, it makes many obsolete and not worth much... Or, like the Onslaught Set that is coming, for someone who has Conq gear, this set does nothing more than offer possible cosmetics....

Each new "tier" that comes out, makes other gear options obsolete - IMO due to set bonuses.

If you guys ever release another "tier" of gear above Conq for RR50+ itll make Conq obsolete, etc.

It seems to me, why not make any piece viable options? For instance, say I wanted to stack "reduced chance to be parried" and/or "parrystrikethough" to give me the highest chance?

Well right now I should just look to pick up 4 pieces of Dominator due to the 4 piece + Dominator Brassarts giving me 2%.

If there was no set bonus... I might build for Dominator Brassarts 2% but then grab Espaliers of the Mercenary for 3% reduced chance to be parried, I might also grab Imperator helm for another 1% there.

So you might argue "well you can just do that now" but not really... Losing the set bonuses from Dominator (66 STR and 66 Wounds) PLUS its 5% set bonus, makes it FAR better choice...

Thus removing set bonuses, provides MUCH more in the way of "options" to build how players want. Rather than logging in and having essentially just 1 "path to gear" - determined by which SET of gear you want... You would log in and ALL the "gameplay options" might be appealing, not just Scenarios, or "just RVR" to get your desired pieces.

Also the added benefit is build CHANGE over time. maybe that parry strikethough player then decides he wants to stack tons of Wounds....

Well right now this likely means something like 3 piece Dominator + maybe 3 piece Conq for both set bonuses... Instead it might mean piecing together all the pieces that have the most wounds on each individual piece: such as possibly
- Conq Boots
- Beastlord Cloak
- Beastlord Corslet
etc. etc.

The current "sets" method - basically puts all players in the same gear, same sets, same types of builds. removing the "mandatory set" mantra... allows players to prioritize what THEY want and creates new demand for MANY pieces of gear, acquired through MANY Avenues of play

th3gatekeeper wrote:Or, like the Onslaught Set that is coming, for someone who has Conq gear, this set does nothing more than offer possible cosmetics....

Not true. Onslaught will become BiS for a portion of the playerbase, specifically sorc/BW due to the 4pc bonus. It could also be BiS for backline WP/dok due to the 4pc bonus.

Zaxxed

I get what you mean here and I like the idea in the whole, however I believe that it would be more difficult for the devs to address power creep.

Now, basically, you have to balance new sets taking in account the pre-existing sets (and their combinations) and maybe few other things (few inf gear and some jewelry).
However, having the set bonuses spread over the many items, you should consider all the single equipable items esisting for balancing. Thus making possible to stack some dangerous stats (for example crit. or parry/block and so on).

If you really want free customisation, you will have likely power creep. With sets you have less possible cases/combinations, but are easier to handle (due to their double edge knife aspect).

Not sure how much of the methodology of gear balance in this game is based upon Azarael's State Stabilization theorem he posted before taking a break from being attacked on the forums, but it seems that, with the tier consolidation going on in ORvR, the theorem is still in play, In fact, the State Stabilization fits what's going on in-game perfectly with the bolstering of lower level players into upper tier ORvR etc. If State Stabilization is not in-game in practical application yet, I can see where the changes being made to the tier system will justify its implementation and therefore you will see less power creep between gear sets. Gear sets and their set bonuses will be merely a method to alter your individual play style and not overpower an under-level or less geared opponent.

Doing away with set bonuses will only serve to widen the gap between the "entry level" T4 gear and the BiS gear. How? With the ability to do away with concern for the Set Bonuses, you can solely focus on stacking one or maybe 2 stats. In doing so, you end up with a stratification of stats (i.e. Glass Nukes or unkillable healers) further making the divide between opposing players. It becomes more Rock-Paper-Scissors and TTK can get all out of whack on both ends of the spectrum.

The ulterior motive behind set bonuses is like going all-in in no limit poker; it forces the player to make a decision between gaining the stat-stack from gear and talis( ignoring the set bonuses), taking the full 5 or6 piece set bonuses, or multi-setting for mixed bonuses. The attractiveness of some of the set bonuses diminishes once you have multiple sets and can mix and match for your build; however, if all you have is Ruin, your best bet is to wear all Ruin.

The option you seek, ignore set bonuses and choose gear based upon stats and on-gear bonus (=%crit, +block, +heal crit, etc) is an option for you right now. You can do this. Find the gear you want to use to maximise your stat(s) and equip it. Your idea of rolling the individual set bonuses into the individual pieces would make those pieces very strong and create the BiS items you claim to be trying to avoid. In other words, you can't have both.

I don't think that making each piece of gear have it's own "set bonus" individually is a good idea for multiple reasons.

Mainly because it is much harder and time consuming to identify issues and balance each piece of gear individually instead of looking at the entire set at once.

It also makes the gearing part of the game harder to understand for newer players, and that is not something you want imo (This does NOT mean making the game idiot-proof).
You want a gearing system that it's streamlined, easy to understand and efficient but offer enough customization, complexity and freedom to the players to build as close to their idea as possible, and that is what we have right now.

th3gatekeeper wrote: Several times when trying to farm new gear, ill get a new piece but guess what... I cant even use that new piece yet because I need atleast 2, or maybe 3 of that set to replace the lost benefits of losing another set.

I think that is the main reason you feel that way about gearing. The current sets simply cost too much for the average player. Unless you spend 6-7hrs a day for an entire month of grinding Scs, or waiting for zones to cap and hope you got a decent enough contrib and then, if you win a bag, hope Rnjesus decided to give you a piece of gear you need

Currently we have Beastlord, Dominator, Conqueror as the "BiS" sets. 1 of those is gated behind hundreds of hours of mindless SC farming, another is gated behind "Hunting Seasons", and another is gated behind Rng and zone-zerging. This is what is hindering the customization of the characters.

Hastykrasty wrote:I get what you mean here and I like the idea in the whole, however I believe that it would be more difficult for the devs to address power creep.

Now, basically, you have to balance new sets taking in account the pre-existing sets (and their combinations) and maybe few other things (few inf gear and some jewelry).
However, having the set bonuses spread over the many items, you should consider all the single equipable items esisting for balancing. Thus making possible to stack some dangerous stats (for example crit. or parry/block and so on).

If you really want free customisation, you will have likely power creep. With sets you have less possible cases/combinations, but are easier to handle (due to their double edge knife aspect).

I guess this is what I get for not fully spelling out the idea... In other threads I get accused of massive walls of text trying to explain, and when I try and summarize more (Yes- I tried in my OP LOL) then questions like this come up.

So first, let me address power creep. The removal of set bonuses removes hundreds of stats from the players arsenal. Lets just say for the sake of illustration (because not all set bonuses are stats) that a player is rocking 3 piece BL, and 3 peace Conq 2pc Domi gear... Just as an illustration. This gives an extra +66 weaponskill (BL) + 66 Str (Domi) + 66 Tough + 66 Wounds (Conq).

Again - stressing, nobody ACTUALLY would run this (unlikely) but to quantify an example using sheer stats.

So this person is LOSING 4* 66= 264 stats.

Now, we could stop there and call it a day. Now people stack whatever they want, so you can focus on "stacking dangerous stats" like you said... Example: Crit or Parry, etc.

However they LOST 264 stats to be able to THEN swap out MORE stats for more of those % increases (block, parry etc.)
Example: Player wants Parry %, and swaps out all his gear for Parry %. So he swaps out his Dominator Gauntles, for Ruin Gauntlets... To focus on Parry %.... Well to do this he LOST stuff from Dominator, so its not like people just get "free stats".

So people would actually on average be weaker, and might be able to (through mix n matching) get BACK set bonuses they lost, at the cost of other stats...

So my suggestion was to beef back up some of the pieces. So if we know Dominator has +66 Strength as a two piece, maybe we bump up the strength values on each piece by a tad... 6 pieces, 66 STR, each piece could get like 10 more strength... OR, if you wanted to "weight" them - you could easily do that too by taking the % of STR of the set that piece gets (like Gloves are 16/116 = 13.79% * 66 STR = 9 more strength for gloves, where the chest 35/116 = 30.17% of the sets strength, and thus gets +19 or +20 more STR (depending how you round).

Players couldnt get any 6 piece 5% crit bonus anymore... So even if they could mix n match pieces to get back 5% more crit with pieces... they still will be a "net loss" as they had to give up SOMETHING ELSE to get BACK their 5% crit...

I am not advocating for taking ALL the set bonuses and just piece them out saying "Gloves get 66 more str" "Chest gets 5% more crit".

What I am saying is EITHER
1) Just remove set bonuses. Done. No more. (Everyone loses %s and stats BUT has more choice)
2) Remove set bonuses and take the STATS and allocate them out to each individual piece. Still leaving OUT the %s and what not.

OR FINAL OPTION:
3) Do #2 but then ALSO beef up slightly each individual piece. Sticking to Dominator, here are Chosens set bonuses:
2 Piece +66 Strength
3 Piece +66 Wounds
4 Piece +5% Parry Strikethrough
5 Piece On Hit: 10% Chance to Taunt Target
6 Piece +5% Melee Crit

So possible split each pieces bonuses... Like this:
Current Boots = 3% Crit, bump to 5% Crit (still -3% total loss from Dominator Set).
Current Dominator Gauntlets = 2% Parry Strikethrough, New = 4% (still net loss of 3%)
Maybe Dominator Shoulderguards goes from 10% AA haste up to like 25% (and consumes the "10% chance to taunt")
Then maybe the Deathgirdle/Carapace/Skullcase you divy out the STR/Wounds stats but only use like 40% of the stats (so rather than +132 to split, they would share +53 stats divded).

Just a few ideas.


ALL of these ideas though are a total "net loss" so even if you can mix n match to get say 1-2% more crit, or lets go overboard and say you do #3 and this allows someone to get like 5%+ more Parry or something... Well it still COST them other things to get this - like crit, or wounds, or toughness or armor, etc...

But this is the point. You get to CHOOSE what you want. I mean Shoot... What if a 2H Chosen wants Initiative? Well there isnt much on Dominator (+8)... Nor is there really any on Beastlord.. But those are the "sets" a 2H Chosen gets for the other stats... This all opens up more options now where due to no set bonuses, he might grab Conq death Girdle to pick up +24 there. It just opens up more choice.

Right now its "get your sets" and then "fill in stats with your enchants/sockets"

This system would be "Find pieces that offer stats you like".

I hope I was clear enough to explain this... There are multiple ways you can go, all of which, I dont think there is any true risk of any power creep. Its still a net loss of stats and %s, etc... But now players have much more choice in how they build, rather than having stats "determined" for them by whatever their "BIS tier" gear set auto-gives them....