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[AM] M1 Isha's Ward

These proposals have passed an internal review and are implemented in some way on the server. Review for specific implementation details.
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Wam
Posts: 803

Re: [AM] M1 Isha's Ward [Close Date: 6th May]

Post#71 » Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:48 pm

FM & Resoulte Defence was strong on AM

this absorb m1 is okay not in same bracket though... its a choice... if you nerf it you take away potential choice and make them copy other healers with m1... game would be better with more choice not less in my opinion

I've never ever been worried in orvr about a AM using m1 to survive... because they don't or won't in large scale if your damage is good enough... it's never turned a big scale fight, even if they somehow managed to effectively double it which is super rare... if your damage is on point it can maybe buy them one second... or two because they are super squishy.

I feel its only strong in 1 v 1 dps AM... and the game isn't balanced around that

AM is 2/3rd healer choice in WB... I don't see why it needs nerfs as its not over performing currently...
thats coming from someone who plays as/with/against

Also all the arguements I see for nerfing are largely based on hypothetical gameplay and not the norms... Healer get guard in wb? have you been in pug wb's? lucky if dps get guard... as for organised if you switch guard (it can still happen but its less like 6 man because the damage is greater) but means dps likely die... no dps RIP against superior numbers.

Some of you guys seem to be really underestimating the damage and speed of warband play and how insignificant this m1 3600 absorb on squishiest healer is to survial... so if its insignificant in current supposed OP form... why does it need to be lowered even more? is it such a game breaking huge deal with 6 man's and scs? Any decent ST assist train should chew up AM?

Also healers lack core m3/m4 options generally... so having two m1 options and FM gives slight variety. Personally I generally take m1 heal the majority of time because healers job is to keep others alive and helps vs heal debuff spike... if Isha ward was OP it would be taken all the time by everyone and need to be nerfed but i don't think thats the case.
Last edited by Wam on Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Knowthyself
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Re: [AM] M1 Isha's Ward [Close Date: 6th May]

Post#72 » Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:57 pm

anarchypark wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:40 pm ok i may not have enough exp to tell it's OP or not cuz i don't use pre-shield.
maybe it's good against WEs.
what if WE pop on you when shield was 50% value due to previous fluff dmgs.
is it still OP?
I admit that pre-shield is not a waste.
it's risky-reward style. pros and cons.

cons :
other morales on CD when it's needed.
well, that's pretty big.
marsh+morale+aoe detaunt combo.

pros :
extra gcd.
safeguard against WE.

I miss something over-performing ?
I don't think maybes are good for discussions. What you are missing here is that healers are the first targets in engagements which makes a morale like that overwhelmingly good. In addition, it is a huge guarantee since you will have it poped for the next 60 seconds which means you will safely have your morale up to at least M2 in that time and that doesn't really prevent you from using other morales as you pointed but gives you option to recast the bubble or use M2. Morover, in small scale you would have a big advantage on not only WE but any class out there. Especially in 1v1s, which is the case atm.

Once again I would like to remind you that moral abilities are intended to be used in exactly at the right time when it is needed most (moral dumps and tring to survive a focus). That's why they are designed more powerful than the normal abilities and 55 sec. duration doesn't really serve to that purpose but penetrate it imo.
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Tesq
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Re: [AM] M1 Isha's Ward [Close Date: 6th May]

Post#73 » Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:18 pm

Knowthyself wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:49 pm
peterthepan3 wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:41 pm Good point at the end, i.e. you do miss out on a big heal if you slot it.
Which can be taken as another proof for overperforming. I don't understand how that makes a good point anyway. I don't think there is a class that can slot two M1s at the same time if I am not missing something here.
is not overperforming is balanced with funnel essence replacing heal core m1 and that absorb m1 being a replacement for missing def stuff due the am being the most less durable hale def wise in game:

-no perma detaunt (as 5/6 healers)
-no escape skill/tactic as his mirror
-no dmg reductions stuff (which would had required anyway a 100% update time saw what other classes have).

shammy get an extra hot instead half cost of ap, and use tactics for def stuff, and morale for heal stuff; both are playable and balanced imo.
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Jinxypie
Posts: 328

Re: [AM] M1 Isha's Ward [Close Date: 6th May]

Post#74 » Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:49 pm

Wam wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:48 pm
this absorb m1 is okay not in same bracket though... its a choice... if you nerf it you take away potential choice and make them copy other healers with m1... game would be better with more choice not less in my opinion

What are you talking about? Nobodys taking the morale away, ppl just want it to be on par with similar ones duration wise.
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adamthelc
Posts: 832

Re: [AM] M1 Isha's Ward [Close Date: 6th May]

Post#75 » Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:00 pm

Jinxypie wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:49 pm
Wam wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:48 pm
this absorb m1 is okay not in same bracket though... its a choice... if you nerf it you take away potential choice and make them copy other healers with m1... game would be better with more choice not less in my opinion

What are you talking about? Nobodys taking the morale away, ppl just want it to be on par with similar ones duration wise.
dansari wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:40 am Just a reminder that we're discussing the AM m1. Other class bubbles or morales have no bearing and serve no purpose being discussed as a byproduct of whatever change may come of this proposal.
If I can't argue why they don't need to be the same, you can't argue that they should be the same.

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anarchypark
Posts: 2073

Re: [AM] M1 Isha's Ward [Close Date: 6th May]

Post#76 » Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:57 pm

Knowthyself wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:57 pm
Spoiler:
I don't think maybes are good for discussions. What you are missing here is that healers are the first targets in engagements which makes a morale like that overwhelmingly good. In addition, it is a huge guarantee since you will have it poped for the next 60 seconds which means you will safely have your morale up to at least M2 in that time and that doesn't really prevent you from using other morales as you pointed but gives you option to recast the bubble or use M2. Morover, in small scale you would have a big advantage on not only WE but any class out there. Especially in 1v1s, which is the case atm.

Once again I would like to remind you that moral abilities are intended to be used in exactly at the right time when it is needed most (moral dumps and tring to survive a focus). That's why they are designed more powerful than the normal abilities and 55 sec. duration doesn't really serve to that purpose but penetrate it imo.

you are first target and ur hp don't move while shields are absorbing. what are u doing in that time?
without pre-shield you're first target and you are healing. aoe, ST, HoT, moving heal etc.
what's overwhelmingly good in this case?

during 60sec you don't face any threat to urself and group?
what if team is in danger, you have IW, other morales on CD.
what's the benefit of pre-shield in this case? you survive while others die?

clearly whoever made 60sec morale didn't intended exactly right moment dump.
should we follow mythic's intention? i don't.

is skill OP in group play? that's easier approach.

destro got monstro mara. let dps AM have IW.
see? there's a reason we don't discuss 1on1 in here.

ps. about the issue SC join with IW.
i tested. possible to join with it but timer ran out b4 first encounter.
slayer M2 was permanent 8 hit. it was different thing.
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Knowthyself
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Posts: 84

Re: [AM] M1 Isha's Ward [Close Date: 6th May]

Post#77 » Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:07 pm

Tesq wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:18 pm
Knowthyself wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:49 pm
peterthepan3 wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:41 pm Good point at the end, i.e. you do miss out on a big heal if you slot it.
Which can be taken as another proof for overperforming. I don't understand how that makes a good point anyway. I don't think there is a class that can slot two M1s at the same time if I am not missing something here.
is not overperforming is balanced with funnel essence replacing heal core m1 and that absorb m1 being a replacement for missing def stuff due the am being the most less durable hale def wise in game:

-no perma detaunt (as 5/6 healers)
-no escape skill/tactic as his mirror
-no dmg reductions stuff (which would had required anyway a 100% update time saw what other classes have).

shammy get an extra hot instead half cost of ap, and use tactics for def stuff, and morale for heal stuff; both are playable and balanced imo.
if you are going to excuse the tactics and other abilities of other classes then I think a more detailed conparison in terms of other tactics, heal output and benefit to the team is required. What we are talking here is M1.
Last edited by Knowthyself on Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Newgit
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Re: [AM] M1 Isha's Ward [Close Date: 6th May]

Post#78 » Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:16 pm

anarchypark wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:57 pm
Knowthyself wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:57 pm
Spoiler:
I don't think maybes are good for discussions. What you are missing here is that healers are the first targets in engagements which makes a morale like that overwhelmingly good. In addition, it is a huge guarantee since you will have it poped for the next 60 seconds which means you will safely have your morale up to at least M2 in that time and that doesn't really prevent you from using other morales as you pointed but gives you option to recast the bubble or use M2. Morover, in small scale you would have a big advantage on not only WE but any class out there. Especially in 1v1s, which is the case atm.

Once again I would like to remind you that moral abilities are intended to be used in exactly at the right time when it is needed most (moral dumps and tring to survive a focus). That's why they are designed more powerful than the normal abilities and 55 sec. duration doesn't really serve to that purpose but penetrate it imo.

you are first target and ur hp don't move while shields are absorbing. what are u doing in that time?
without pre-shield you're first target and you are healing. aoe, ST, HoT, moving heal etc.
what's overwhelmingly good in this case?

during 60sec you don't face any threat to urself and group?
what if team is in danger, you have IW, other morales on CD.
what's the benefit of pre-shield in this case? you survive while others die?

clearly whoever made 60sec morale didn't intended exactly right moment dump.
should we follow mythic's intention? i don't.

is skill OP in group play? that's easier approach.

destro got monstro mara. let dps AM have IW.
see? there's a reason we don't discuss 1on1 in here.

ps. about the issue SC join with IW.
i tested. possible to join with it but timer ran out b4 first encounter.
slayer M2 was permanent 8 hit. it was different thing.
I don't see any logic in excusing the abnormally long duration of a moral by saying "but hey we put our other morals into CD". Where is the logic here ? Please try to make some sense. If we bring it to which side has what point I am sure Order side still got capacity to cry after all the buffs made on WL SW Slayer and WH..

Yet a simple question. If it is not important, if it is not really something overperforming and it is not usefull in group play then why making its cooldown 20seconds is a big deal ? If it is not 1vs1 what we should be talking about here and since it is not really a tool for group play tool then why should it stay 60 seconds anyway ??
Last edited by Knowthyself on Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dabbart
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Re: [AM] M1 Isha's Ward [Close Date: 6th May]

Post#79 » Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:29 pm

For the record, the only people discussing 1v1 are those trying to say how much we shouldn’t.... Anarchy, I gave plenty of examples of ways and reasons to use this M1, not just WE. Go read my first post on page 5.

Other people, I don’t care if your premade WB or 6v6 team thinks it is the best choice. I for instance, don’t think Morale Pump on AM is ever a good choice. Different game theories aren't proof of anything. I have also stated that I don't believe this M1 will ever be used heavily(in cycle form) in 6v6's or premade WBs. Cause every class is supposed to be built a particular way in those settings. Ofc, 95% of gameplay doesn't take part in 6v6 events or premade WBs... Ofc, changing the M1 to 20s wont have any impact on any "intelligent" usage of this M1, in ANY setting.

Seriously, how much stuff "works" in 6man, gank squads, SCs, or NA timezone ORvR, that just flat out wont in EU ORvR simply due to amount of WBs? Don't use your timezone's ORvR zerg or not as proof of anything please. There are more ways to play competently outside of a TUP/Phalanx/Zerg premade WB... And remember, that is what Balance Forums are seen from, 6man+ and played competently. Not the best of the best 6v6 or 24v24 setting. You not using it, isn't proof of a damned thing.

This is the same(ish) as how Shaman proc needed to be changed cause it could be OP, just because something isn’t broken to the point everyone and their mother insists on using it, doesn’t mean it isn’t Op. and just cause you don’t use it, really doesn’t mean much...

And for the love of god... can we stop comparing Tactics to Morales? Survival tactics on Sham are “countered” by AM AP tactics. Shams “counter” to ishas ward is Mork Sayz Stop. You compare M1s to other M1s.

As for Tesq saying AMs have no Perma detaunt, escape/survival tools, or damage reduction.... go slap yourself in the face. AMs have 2 detaunts. 1 is a 100% up time ST.
Sham is the only healer that has a Kite tactic. So what? AM is the only one that gets 50% AP cost. AMs also have puddle.

Damage reduction is in the x2 detaunts, SOS, and other heal abilities. What damage reduction does any non-Z/RP have besides detaunts?
Spoiler:
Tesq, dude, please. Reread your posts, plz try to make them legible. It’s possible I’m arguing that wrong side against you. Cause your **** hard to understand.

Other than that... I believe every question has been answered, or at least attempted to be, previously in this thread.
Last edited by Dabbart on Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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dansari
Posts: 2524

Re: [AM] M1 Isha's Ward [Close Date: 6th May]

Post#80 » Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:38 pm

Spoiler:
adamthelc wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:00 pm
Jinxypie wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:49 pm
Wam wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:48 pm
this absorb m1 is okay not in same bracket though... its a choice... if you nerf it you take away potential choice and make them copy other healers with m1... game would be better with more choice not less in my opinion

What are you talking about? Nobodys taking the morale away, ppl just want it to be on par with similar ones duration wise.
dansari wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:40 am Just a reminder that we're discussing the AM m1. Other class bubbles or morales have no bearing and serve no purpose being discussed as a byproduct of whatever change may come of this proposal.
If I can't argue why they don't need to be the same, you can't argue that they should be the same.
Don't misquote me. I'm directly referencing rule #3 -- No reciprocal adjustments -- in response, though unquoted, to you:
adamthelc wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:25 am If the M1 must be brought in line I would say increase the duration on Choppa and Knights bubble.
To quote Aza:
This means that, for example, if Destruction class X is in the frame for buffs or nerfs, we are not interested in hearing about how Order class Y must immediately be buffed or nerfed to compensate
You can and should look at what is consistent across other classes when debating an issue of whether it makes sense to balance the ability being discussed, but specifically for the purpose of referencing the strength of an ability, not the adjustments that would have to be made if the ability is changed.
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