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[SL/Chop] 2H Tree 2nd and 3rd Tactics

https://www.returnofreckoning.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26167

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[SL/Chop] 2H Tree 2nd and 3rd Tactics

Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:25 am
by nebelwerfer
Breaking Point/Strong Finish original proposal
Spoiler:
Hi balance forum

I wish to discuss the Breaking point / Strong finish tactic and propose an idea I have regarding it.

The tactic gives 15 % crit for all abilities in the middle tree and used to increase your chance to be crit by 10% until this effect was removed.

The issue is that every ability used outside the giantslayer tree will be a waste when using this tactic as they do not benefit at all from it. Abilities excluded from this are for example snare, heal debuff, backstab, all aoe abilities and crit chance debuff. This is a huge part of the toolkit that would benefit more from other tactics.

I propose to make this tactic give pulverizing strike/slasha an initiative debuff alongside the toughness one with the same values.
The effect will be similar but it will not exclude most abilities from your toolkit. At maxed mastery points the debuff will be 240 stat points, 120 toughness and 120 initiative.

This will make the build more viable and work well with other tree's abilities and group setups.

Thx for reading
Violent Impacts/Wear Em Down original proposal
Spoiler:
Hey balance forum

In this post I want to discuss the tactic Violent impacts/ Wear em down. It gives you a 50% chance to regain 25% of your rage on exhaustive blows.

The issue with this tactic is that it's RNG meaning you cannot rely on it and that is a big problem. If you wish to hit a target with several of your exhaustive attack debuffs you will potentially wait a long time in green dealing low amounts of damage unless this tactic proccs, which you never know. That is just not good enough for a tactic slot imo.

I propose to change the tactic to make exhaustive attacks used in red(75%+) put you in yellow(25%) and exhaustive attacks used in yellow put you in green (0%). This will make the tactic reliable and open up a lot more tactical use of exhaustive combos to more efficiently use this tree, being the tree with the best debuffs for both slayer and choppa (especially after you read part 1 of my proposal).

These are my proposals for the middle trees looking forward to hearing ur thoughts if any of these make it into discussion.
Combining OP's proposals into one discussion as I believe it is relevant to discuss together:

Proposal 1: Remove 15% crit chance from Breaking Point/Strong Finish and replace with a stacking initiative debuff applied with Pulverizing Strike/Slasha that matches the Toughness debuff tooltip.

Proposal 2: Remove the RNG factor to Violent Impacts/Wear Em Down and simply make any exhaustive blow used in red put you in yellow, and any exhaustive blow used in yellow put you in green.

Re: [SL/Chop] 2H Tree 2nd and 3rd Tactics [Close Date June 14]

Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 3:23 pm
by dansari
Moving to discussions, closed June 14. Personally I don't think an initiative debuff is necessary and believe something else can be done with Breaking Point/Strong Finish to make it more worthwhile, so as always we're open to alternative suggestions; just keep it on topic regarding these 2 tactics.

Re: [SL/Chop] 2H Tree 2nd and 3rd Tactics [Close Date June 14]

Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:30 pm
by Wdova
For a realiable 2H build for choppa and for slayer is crucial to stay in red all the time with "Wot rules" and "Power through" tactics. If anyone decide go for 2H tree that means he has good group which can keep him alive and any defensive stat(maybe besides chance to get crit) is irelevant.
Slayer is in a slightly better spot so he can spam spellbreaker which cost less AP than pulverizing strike and destroy all absorb bubbles.

I dont see the point going for 2H build and stay in green/yellow.

As a 2H you just spam Slasha or Pulverizing strike most of the time. Once CDs are off you use inc heal debuff or snare, but its not that often as you spam skills which benefit from 15% crit chance tactic.

IF I would touch any of those 2 mentioned tactics, I would modify "Breaking point" and "Strong finish" to something like this:

Increase crit chance by 15% and increase dmg dealt by 5-10% if you You have 2H weapon equiped.

I dont like 120init and 120 toughnes debuff idea since all debuffs can be stripped off while 15% crit chance tactic cant be shattered or cleansed....

Re: [SL/Chop] 2H Tree 2nd and 3rd Tactics [Close Date June 14]

Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:10 pm
by Toldavf
Power through is suicide in competitive play.

The fact that an entire weapon set requires tactics at all to be viable is bad design.

Re: [SL/Chop] 2H Tree 2nd and 3rd Tactics [Close Date June 14]

Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:16 pm
by TenTonHammer
Wdova wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:30 pm For a realiable 2H build for choppa and for slayer is crucial to stay in red all the time with "Wot rules" and "Power through" tactics.
This is true for slayer but not choppa

the former needs to stay in red for wonds debuff and aabsord bubble removal but choppa's 2h abilites with outgoing HD and CD increaser dont need to be spammed out so its not as necessary to run red

and i would much rather have an ini debuff that even if its clensed can be reapplied just as quickly over a crit buff to just a few of the attacks in my rotation

stacking crits dosnt work good on choppa, if you want to do that you might as well just play WE

Re: [SL/Chop] 2H Tree 2nd and 3rd Tactics [Close Date June 14]

Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:18 pm
by TenTonHammer
Toldavf wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:10 pm Power through is suicide in competitive play.

The fact that an entire weapon set requires tactics at all to be viable is bad design.
with out the busted ultra defensive RR100 gear, running power though/wot rules will never be viable as the gear sets otheriwse just dont provide enough surviveability even with pocket guard and heals

Re: [SL/Chop] 2H Tree 2nd and 3rd Tactics [Close Date June 14]

Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:51 pm
by tomato
Perma enrage will never be viable in its current state, no matter the gear.
Either amp up the damage significantly or reduce defensive drawbacks.
Or just completly rework the middle tree.

Holds true for slayer and for choppa.

Re: [SL/Chop] 2H Tree 2nd and 3rd Tactics [Close Date June 14]

Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:55 pm
by dansari
tomato wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:51 pm Perma enrage will never be viable in its current state, no matter the gear.
Either amp up the damage significantly or reduce defensive drawbacks.
Or just completly rework the middle tree.

Holds true for slayer and for choppa.
The proposal isn't about Power Through/Wot Rules.

Re: [SL/Chop] 2H Tree 2nd and 3rd Tactics [Close Date June 14]

Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:00 pm
by nebelwerfer
Wdova wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:30 pm For a realiable 2H build for choppa and for slayer is crucial to stay in red all the time with "Wot rules" and "Power through" tactics. If anyone decide go for 2H tree that means he has good group which can keep him alive and any defensive stat(maybe besides chance to get crit) is irelevant.
Slayer is in a slightly better spot so he can spam spellbreaker which cost less AP than pulverizing strike and destroy all absorb bubbles.

I dont see the point going for 2H build and stay in green/yellow.

As a 2H you just spam Slasha or Pulverizing strike most of the time. Once CDs are off you use inc heal debuff or snare, but its not that often as you spam skills which benefit from 15% crit chance tactic.

IF I would touch any of those 2 mentioned tactics, I would modify "Breaking point" and "Strong finish" to something like this:

Increase crit chance by 15% and increase dmg dealt by 5-10% if you You have 2H weapon equiped.

I dont like 120init and 120 toughnes debuff idea since all debuffs can be stripped off while 15% crit chance tactic cant be shattered or cleansed....
I disagree that power through is crucial, however i see where you are coming from and that is a part of the problem and partially why i made this thread.

This change will need the ragemeter to be get red in order to reliably apply your stronger debuffs and still hit fairly hard + most of your exhaustive blows are still available.

With the proposed changes you would able to efficiently bury the ini and toughness debuff easily with bleeds or other debuffs, without losing the benefit of the tactic. The class is not lacking on ailments at all so i do not share that concern that it would be cleansed all the time.

A flat crit and damage increase for all abilities and auto attacks seems pretty strong, it would mean 55-60% more dmg when red and combined with other crit damage multiplying tactics it could possibly make the class overtuned if not now, later when new gear comes.

Re: [SL/Chop] 2H Tree 2nd and 3rd Tactics [Close Date June 14]

Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:08 pm
by tomato
dansari wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:55 pm
tomato wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:51 pm Perma enrage will never be viable in its current state, no matter the gear.
Either amp up the damage significantly or reduce defensive drawbacks.
Or just completly rework the middle tree.

Holds true for slayer and for choppa.
The proposal isn't about Power Through/Wot Rules.
People were arguing about it, so I thought I chime in, my apologies.
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