[All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough

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dansari
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[All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough

Post#1 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:02 pm

Peter and I would like to hear feedback from the community regarding innate positional disrupt strikethrough. As we all know, parry/block do not work from the back. What kind of pros/cons exist with adding a positional disrupt strikethrough to act in the same way? At what % should this be set, if it were implemented?

As always, we're looking for honest feedback in a civil debate of ideas; trolling, whining, or other breaking of the rules isn't cool and will be moderated.
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Tesq
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Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#2 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:14 pm

you mean total? from behind like block/parry work? or fix % so only a part and not totally or bsed on something?
Last edited by Tesq on Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Foomy44
Posts: 355

Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#3 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:15 pm

I REALLY hate the disrupt changes, play multiple dot classes (including DPS shammy which got hurt the most out of this change) and truly believe something needs to be done to address disrupt rates, but this probably isn't it. If it's all we are gonna get I'll take it but I doubt it will make a big enough difference to many of the classes that are hurting from the disrupt changes. Doesn't really work thematically either IMO but that's not a huge issue. If you can dodge from behind you should be able to disrupt from behind.

1 possible issue I see is that this will benefit certain builds way more than other ones depending on how it's implemented. If you cast a targeted aoe, is the center of the aoe where the damage will be coming from? If so it is going to be crazy easy for builds like firestorm spamming magus to just constantly channel their main aoe behind enemy lines and avoid tons of disrupts that way, which might seem OP to many, while not doing a whole lot for other builds that won't be able to "abuse" it that way (on many of my dot classes if the enemy has his back turned to me it's because I'm winning and he is running so this change wouldn't help me during the important parts of the fight, just a win more kinda thing). Might possibly make balancing disrupt rates a bit more difficult down the line.

Could be wrong, just my initial thoughts, and do very much appreciate devs are at least looking at messing with disrupt in some form. Hesitant vote for yes due to lack of options, but would prefer a different way of dealing with disrupt rates.
Last edited by Foomy44 on Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tesq
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Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#4 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:18 pm

Foomy44 wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:15 pm
I REALLY hate the disrupt changes, play multiple dot classes (including DPS shammy which got hurt the most out of this change) and truly believe something needs to be done to address disrupt rates, but this probably isn't it. If it's all we are gonna get I'll take it but I doubt it will make a big enough difference to many of the classes that are hurting from the disrupt changes. Doesn't really work thematically either IMO but that's not a huge issue. If you can dodge from behind you should be able to disrupt from behind.

1 possible issue I see is that this will benefit certain builds way more than other ones depending on how it's implemented. If you cast a targeted aoe, is the center of the aoe where the damage will be coming from? If so it is going to be crazy easy for builds like firestorm spamming magus to just constantly channel their main aoe behind enemy lines and avoid tons of disrupts that way, which might seem OP to many, while not doing a whole lot for other builds that won't be able to "abuse" it that way. Might possibly make balancing disrupt rates a bit more difficult down the line.

Could be wrong, just my initial thoughts, and do very much appreciate devs are at least looking at messing with disrupt in some form.
in tabletop a similar problem was solved by count the direction always came from the one who cast and not from the center of the blast ( in this case the visual effect) that would not be much of a problem
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Foomy44
Posts: 355

Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#5 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:19 pm

Tesq wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:18 pm
Foomy44 wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:15 pm
I REALLY hate the disrupt changes, play multiple dot classes (including DPS shammy which got hurt the most out of this change) and truly believe something needs to be done to address disrupt rates, but this probably isn't it. If it's all we are gonna get I'll take it but I doubt it will make a big enough difference to many of the classes that are hurting from the disrupt changes. Doesn't really work thematically either IMO but that's not a huge issue. If you can dodge from behind you should be able to disrupt from behind.

1 possible issue I see is that this will benefit certain builds way more than other ones depending on how it's implemented. If you cast a targeted aoe, is the center of the aoe where the damage will be coming from? If so it is going to be crazy easy for builds like firestorm spamming magus to just constantly channel their main aoe behind enemy lines and avoid tons of disrupts that way, which might seem OP to many, while not doing a whole lot for other builds that won't be able to "abuse" it that way. Might possibly make balancing disrupt rates a bit more difficult down the line.

Could be wrong, just my initial thoughts, and do very much appreciate devs are at least looking at messing with disrupt in some form.
in tabletop a similar problem was solved by cont the direction always from the one who cast and not from the center of the blast ( in this case the visual effect) that would not be much of a problem
Yeah I assumed that would be an option, just think we should make it clear which way this proposal is leaning early on in this discussion. Could still be "abused" thou, for example if the chance to disrupt is 0% from behind then standing on your side wall when your keep is getting sieged so you can aoe/nuke the ram carrier from behind and guarantee hits on him will make getting the ram to the door a lot more difficult than it currently is I would think (especially if the caster is a class that doesn't need LoS to get the cast off like Firestorm).
Last edited by Foomy44 on Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Reesh
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Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#6 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:20 pm

From the sides - 10% strikethrough.
From the back - 20% strikethrough.

Disrupt issue is so significant, that those values aren't too high.
I like the idea it opens up at least 'some' counterplay. Though, magical classes are not that mobile, so getting always at the back of the enemy won't be an easy task.
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dansari
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Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#7 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:21 pm

Tesq wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:14 pm
you mean total? from behind like block/parry work? or fix % so only a part and not totally or bsed on something?
Only working from behind/sides, not a total +% disrupt strikethrough for magical rdps
Foomy44 wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:15 pm
Could be wrong, just my initial thoughts, and do very much appreciate devs are at least looking at messing with disrupt in some form.
To be clear, this surfaced from balance discussion and did not originate from any of the developers or Torque.
Foomy44 wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:15 pm
1 possible issue I see is that this will benefit certain builds way more than other ones depending on how it's implemented. If you cast a targeted aoe, is the center of the aoe where the damage will be coming from?
Good point - something to keep in mind
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Darosh
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Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#8 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:38 pm

Clarify please, do you intend to turn things undefendable (with positional req.) or do you intend to add positional 5-15% strikethrough?

It should go without saying that the former would utterly break ORvR ~ BW meta on steroids with semi-undefendable Annihilate etc, if targets are even remotely in this proposed arc.
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Arbich
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Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#9 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:44 pm

I don´t like the disrupt changes and I don´t like the proposal (from a single damage perspective).

Parry don´t work from the back, but its happen in melee fight. So as attacker you can actively try to avoid parry. Dodge/disrupt happened from range fight (lets say 60-100ft). There is no way you can position yourself actively in the back of an enemy over a certain duration. It would only work with m1 cage (not possible to rotate - another change I am not a fan of :D ). Outside of this m1 situations you could only exploit the turning back of your enemy with instant casts, but can´t put reliable pressure on him for a longer duration. So its basically a damage buff based on randomness. Positioning wouldn´t have any effect. The problem is, some might think this would be enough to fix the disrupt issues, but it would be a really boring solution.

Questions I have: Has flight time an effect (disrupt calculated and time cast is finished or cast it hit the enemy)? How it would work with dots?
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Smellybelly
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Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#10 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:51 pm

The first issue with a change to the positional requirements is that it never was very reliable to begin with.
You could have two people playing right next to each other and let them fight each other and on one screen you would see player A hitting player B in the back while if you checked the other monitor player B was frantically trying to keep his front to player A and according to his own monitor, he does that succesfullly. And yet player A lands backstab attacks with rear requirements right in the face of player B.

Im not saying this is a bad idea, but its...a bit complicated.
Its usually not actual lag between player and server wich cause my above example but rather wierd or old coding to begin with, nothing to do with our current devs but something the old AoR team produced (and i believe brought with them to Swtor, at least that game suffers from the same problem when you move too fast).

Im actually for such a change, but im a bit skeptical due to tech reasons.
If its a vote then i would say YES, even with the limitations its fair.

Would it also apply on PVE mobs such as bosses in dungeons?
Im not a 100% sure but i cant remember any pve mob or keep lord managing a parry while at his/her back.
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