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[AM/Sham] Asuryan and Gork Trees [Close Date Aug 14]

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live4treasure
Posts: 270

Re: [AM/Sham] Asuryan and Gork Trees [Close Date Aug 14]

Post#81 » Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:15 pm

That's not what I said. The 15% strikethrough tactic is simply never used. The 10% racial one, however is and it is beneifical. As it stands the 11 pt. one is basically useless currently.

If you fail to see how 150 toughness debuff helps shaman DPS, I don't know what to tell you. I'd gladly switch my 15% strikethrough tactic for shaman's toughness debuff and morale drain one. The only tactic out of the Asuryan tree that is actually used currently is Dispell Magic, which is shared with Shaman in the form of Gorks Touch.

Also reading further, you don't seem to get why that 150 toughness tactic is so good. It's good because it stacks with any other toughness debuff, including your own ae one or the dominator set. The dominator set, however, doesn't stack with the aoe debuff. So, in essence, it's not just a 150 toughness debuff, it's 250 debuff, which is the largest amount of toughness debuff any single class in the game could ever bring, and what's so good about it, is that it not only benefits your own dps, but also the dps of your entire team. I mean, at least that's how it works for all the other abilities in the game, aka a debuff coming from a tactic would stack with an ability. I'd be surprised if it was suddenly different for shaman.
Giladar - rr 80 DPS AM

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Re: [AM/Sham] Asuryan and Gork Trees [Close Date Aug 14]

Post#82 » Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:48 pm

live4treasure wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:15 pm
If you fail to see how 150 toughness debuff helps shaman DPS, I don't know what to tell you. I'd gladly switch my 15% strikethrough tactic for shaman's toughness debuff and morale drain one. The only tactic out of the Asuryan tree that is actually used currently is Dispell Magic, which is shared with Shaman in the form of Gorks Touch.
Shaman dps is based on burst, not dots. So Its barely affected by toughness, but definetely very dependent on dispurt rate. This tactic could be good for am, but for sham its 50/50. Also you can mantain this debuff on 2 (may be 3 targets) in the same time without sacrificing your dps rotation/utility. In largescale rvr ulitily of aoe debuff is also higher jsut coz its instacast aoe vs 2 sec cast single target

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catholicism198
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Re: [AM/Sham] Asuryan and Gork Trees [Close Date Aug 14]

Post#83 » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:04 pm

Let's just end it here. You completely ignored all my other points anyways.

I will never be able to convince you as to why certain changes should be made to make the class play more like Azarael's intends it to, and you will never be able to convince me why it should not. My goal is convince Azarael anyways.

In fact, bringing back Get 'n Smarter was met by the same opposition as my current suggestion by Archmage mains as well. I do not understand why Archmage mains are so opposed to bringing the Shaman on par to them. Or maybe I do... who knows.

I might have cluttered my first post with many ideas and suggestions, but the one change I am gunning for is moving Get 'n Smarter to the Path of Gork, since at its core, it is an offensive and damaging ability meant to rival Radiant Gaze. Although I'm not sure what Azarael wants us to discuss here- since he has brought up a few things.

If this is the wrong place to discuss Get 'n Smarter, then please let me know so I can create a proposal for that suggestion since it is now possible to move abilities from one mastery to another.

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live4treasure
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Re: [AM/Sham] Asuryan and Gork Trees [Close Date Aug 14]

Post#84 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:31 am

I wasn't opposed to that, I agree with that change and suggested it myself earlier in the thread, it was more Gork's Barbs becoming a 4th dot that I was against for the reasons stated above. Also, I did say it was well into the night when this conversation began and you even quoted me doing so, so you'll have to forgive me if I didn't get what you were saying clearly. :D

Actually, reading into it, I don't see what points I ignored. I was simply clearing up exactly what I said earlier, pertaining to how you said Hurts Don't It is irrelevant because both classes have access to toughness debuffs. I say it's relevant, because it stacks with other toughness debuffs. That's all it is, I don't see a need to going over every single point you made, especially if I ended up agreeing with some.

Not sure what exactly you are angry about here, if you dislike shaman's ability to benefit his team's damage potential and think it should be a more selfish damage dealer like the AM, then what I was getting across is that perhaps abilities that allow the shaman to boost his allies' damage (Hurts Don't It, 'Ere We Go etc.) should be removed in favor of achieving your goal. For example, Getting Smarter replacing 'Ere We Go, Hurts Don't It replaced by a 15% strikethrough tactic (shaman likely needs it more than AM anyway) and a dot component added to Gorks Barbs along with some cooldown etc. changes. I don't think that'll happen next patch, but if you wanted shaman to just do more damage plaih and simple and make it essentially a complete mirror, then this seems like the changes that would need to happen for it to be fair.

That said, I'm sure you've been heard. I think what Aza is looking for are ideas for a possible 5 pt. lifetap tree utility ability, perhaps you have some thoughts on that as well?
Giladar - rr 80 DPS AM

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catholicism198
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Re: [AM/Sham] Asuryan and Gork Trees [Close Date Aug 14]

Post#85 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:13 am

No, why would I be mad? It's just a game and I'm just spitballing. -Trying to see what would work and what would not.
Gork's Barbs does not have to become the Shaman's fourth dot- it was just one possible suggestion. It should, however, at least be looked into.- it's just a lazy mirror of a 5 point bw ability.

The only thing I'm really advocating is moving Get 'n Smarter.

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live4treasure
Posts: 270

Re: [AM/Sham] Asuryan and Gork Trees [Close Date Aug 14]

Post#86 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:53 am

I agree with that change from the start lol, my bad I should have said it yesterday, but was simply too sleepy.
Giladar - rr 80 DPS AM

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catholicism198
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Re: [AM/Sham] Asuryan and Gork Trees [Close Date Aug 14]

Post#87 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:51 am

live4treasure wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:53 am I agree with that change from the start lol, my bad I should have said it yesterday, but was simply too sleepy.
Hmmm, I think we both have just been on here too long.

The more I think about it, the less I like it. Simply moving it feels so uninspired to me.
I would rather that Gork's Barbs be converted into something fun and useful... and send Get 'n Smarter packing if need be. :(

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live4treasure
Posts: 270

Re: [AM/Sham] Asuryan and Gork Trees [Close Date Aug 14]

Post#88 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:14 am

Well, it's uncertain if gork's barbs is going to survive at all according to what the plan seems to be. 10% strikethrough is useful as well for shaman, but we'll have to wait until saturday to see the details. Anyhow, the thread is still being monitored, so go ahead and lay down a few extra suggestions.

My suggestion for 5 pt. lifetrap tree, if CE/G! will be removed, is some form of mage armor for AM, for example a self-buff that decreases chance to be crit by 5%, and/or just generates a 200ish hp shield once every 3-4 seconds when hit, and a similar effect with the shaman, except instead of a shield proc, perhaps a proc that generates 10 extra ap every, for example, 2 s for the next 6 seconds upon casting something. Slightly alleviates the respective weaknesses of the classes, but not by much, really. Just a nice bonus.
Last edited by live4treasure on Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:22 am, edited 3 times in total.
Giladar - rr 80 DPS AM

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Re: [AM/Sham] Asuryan and Gork Trees [Close Date Aug 14]

Post#89 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:16 am

Problem with giving Shaman more dot dps is they arent designed as a mobile dps. They are a mobile healer with extra hot and better kiting tactics. Their burst dps is higher but stationary. The opposite of AM with their stationary burst healing and mobile 4 dot dps. If you were to increase the mobility of shaman dps you would also need to give AM access to their extra hot and their kiting tactics. Though imo mirroring like this kills the uniqueness of the classes.
Neither are ever going to be pure dps so an extra dot isnt going to make a difference but giving the AM a extra hot sure would.
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Sigimund
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Re: [AM/Sham] Asuryan and Gork Trees [Close Date Aug 14]

Post#90 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:36 am

AM in RoR has more mobile healing than it used to.

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