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Morals redesign idea

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Acidic
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Morals redesign idea

Post#1 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:10 am

Moral redesign proposal

The suggestion does not feel like it should be in the balance section but if so sry.

The current experiment on moral gains has highlighted to me how much i think that damage morals (especialy aoe) in the game are poorly designed and detremental to the game, they achiving nothing other than enouraging blobbing and reduce the need for tactics and choices.
Why do they encourage blobbing ? Well the maximum effect of an aoe is to concentrate all the aoe produces into a small area so that they all hit the same targets. That way you can take them down. Best way to defeat this is for those facing aoe to blob and rely on the target cap so the damage is spread over larger number of players so it can be healed though. Ie better for attackers and defenders to blob/zerg. The only thing deciding the fight in this case becomes who brings the biggest gun to the party.
Why do morals in thier current form reduce tactics and choices ? The most effective large scale figh currently is "stay alive long enough to dump aoe moral damage syncronised" . The syncronised bit suggests tactics but "123 dump may be pushing the boundaries of good tactics. The stay alive part yes, but that is what the game should be about, stay alive fight, not stay alive and dump. As moral I will grant that some classes have moral drains and moral pumps .... and there is a sort of mini moral game going on around moral gain, but this has no impact on the impact and design of the morals, its just a gain mechanisim.
Why do i dislike damage morals specificaly ? They ignores all player specing/defences/buffs and debuffs and only care about wounds so completly devaluing players specing and specializing except wounds stats. With it only taking 10 or so seconds to get to M2 aoe moral which can Do 1200 damage on a number of players and players can be hit by syncronised dumps it seems very wrong.
The princeple justification for aoe dps morals i have seen is bottleneck breaking, and small group vs large group, but this is not what they do. They can equaly well be used to rolf stomp at bottlenecks and splat a small group it just depends on who "123 dumps" first gets free kills.
What is my suggestion?
Vision of the suggestion: Rather than a moral gain for living, make the moral gain assosiated with heroisim. How do you calulate heroisim ? Heroisim could be inversly related to number of allies around you. Acting in small groups , doing good things vesus blobs should be considered heroic, even if its only heroic in videos :)
How could we do this? we try to invert the "binning" of the resulst of friendly players within 30 feet of player
0-3 players blobbed - get base moral rate (1/1)
4-6 players blobbed - half moral rate (1/2)
6-9 players blobbed - a third of the normal rate (1/3)
It is possible that the number should be based on a party (6) instead of arbitary 3, but thats a tweak :)
Also bands should change on BO’s where 2* concentration , *3 concentration for keeps and something like *4 for Wc

How would the moral skills look if we redisined them ? Well as said before moral damage especialy aoe damage bypasses the normal rules of the game and all player configuration except wounds. does not seem a good design to me. But as we have said that moral points are gained from being heroic the reward should be heroic. Heroisim in my world is saving people from iminit death, taking out key targets and not blind blob aoe.
The morals skills i can see being avalabel would be:
a) buffs
b) debuffs
c) single target damage
d) single target heal

How would the above morals be mapped to exiting Myting morals ?
Moral 1 : Personal buff based upon archtype, heling power, crit, block ..
Moral 2: Single player debuff based upon archetype, crit, negative defense, heal debuff,...
Moral 3: Single target health affect based upon archetype, powerful damage skill (using mitigation) , powerfull heal (using mitigation)
Moral 4: group buff version of moral 1

In short a variety or moral 1 and 2 depnding on class and a choice of Moral 3 for all classes.

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Xergon
Posts: 798

Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#2 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:29 pm

I'm also of opinion that Morale System need hard rework/redesign. In my opinion fights should last long to show full potential and skill of players as well as coordination of premade WBs to use Archetype normal AoE Abilities in right time in right place.
Current state of game completely ignores that, all this Drop Morale on spot makes fight decided in moment of 5 seconds, not to mentions that its so unskilled, if one side don't have Morales ready and other side does then that side will most likely win in 90% times.

To fix that state of game, Morales should be reworked into that they provide uniqe or super strong and long duration (min 30s to 60s) buffs/debuffs. Also Morales should be stricted to class archetypes that means:
TANKS: should have soft/hard CCs, Buffs/Debuffs Morales not DMG ones,
HEALERS: should have Buffs/Debuffs, AoE (not only your group members) Healing/Barrier Morales
DPS Classes: should have main DMG Morales and some Buffs/Debuffs.
That change would also shift balance in WBs, maybe finally WH/WE/WL would find place in WBs with their M4 DMG.
To agree with Acidic, M1 and M2 should stay ST Self/GroupMembers Buff, where M3 and specially M4 should be AoE/Multiple.
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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2773

Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#3 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:38 pm

The morale dmg also exist to combat gear and rr difference.

A group of lvl 3x's against a group of rr60+'s wouldn't stand much chance without morale dmg. But by having cordinating morale dmg the 3x's actually stands a chance. The equity outcome will just become worse if you change Morales to buffs/debuffs while keeping gear and rr differance coz the morales will boost the higher ranked players more then the lower ranked ones. And by removing differances from gear and rr you basicly remove any incentive to progress.

So you see Morales doesn't really care about gear and rr, thats the idea of it. So it's a rather complicated issue.
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Acidic
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Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#4 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:04 pm

roadkillrobin wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:38 pm The morale dmg also exist to combat gear and rr difference.

A group of lvl 3x's against a group of rr60+'s wouldn't stand much chance without morale dmg. But by having cordinating morale dmg the 3x's actually stands a chance. The equity outcome will just become worse if you change Morales to buffs/debuffs while keeping gear and rr differance coz the morales will boost the higher ranked players more then the lower ranked ones. And by removing differances from gear and rr you basicly remove any incentive to progress.

So you see Morales doesn't really care about gear and rr, thats the idea of it. So it's a rather complicated issue.
Its not that morals help lowe geared/leveld players it simply ignores all specialization and as they are so powerful , it makes a joke of the normal mechanisims, especialy when it takes around 10s for some classes to dump 6x1200
The fact that gear makes a difference, y well it should :)
The fact that in RoR unlike WAR the gear scaling and damage levels is rained as well as bolster helps, with bolster you actualy might find that it benifits more low level, but that details of what and how the skills shoudl be exactly.

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Azarael
Posts: 5332

Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#5 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:12 pm

I will raise a couple of points.

Firstly - I neither believe nor care that morales may have been introduced to combat RR/gear, and I will never make a decision based around this concept. The regular ability system does not compensate for RR or gear. Neither should the morale system.

Secondly - I agree with the OP in that morale play is a minigame and what's more, it's a rigged one that favours:

a) people who prefer a certain playstyle (coordinated morale drop), who have traditionally been the ones pushing the hardest for morale gain rates of live
b) the classes that have the tools (and the very limited number of tools) that form a part of that minigame - traditionally favoured by the people listed in a)

Thirdly - the argument will inevitably be raised that morale bombing is necessary to break funnels and deal with zerg (despite it being itself a cause of massing). Any poster needs to explicitly address this.

As I do not wish to partake much in decisions based around large scale affairs, I will say that I'm looking for solutions which make all classes useful within the Morale system and can demonstrate some means of making the system more interesting than "synchronised morale drop from a handful of meta classes/specs".

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catholicism198
Posts: 1092

Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#6 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:29 pm

The morale rates aren't the issue for large scale, it's the high burst ae morale bombing. The current morale changes actually make it so that you can use any of them (m1-4) in a fight and just m1/m2.

What they could do is add a morale immunity timer so that you don't get bombed by several undefendable ae burst morale abilities or change all ae morales into a dot like the Magus' m2: Roiling Winds- that would at least give healers some time to react.

You left out one group:

c) people that don't so much can about the damage they do, but only like the morale rates because it enables them to use abilities with seemingly new and amazing animations that look pretty.

*I'm probably the only one in option c.

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Azarael
Posts: 5332

Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#7 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:30 pm

An immunity timer or bomb limit can be introduced by ensuring that all damaging morales are DoTs and they are in the same group, of which only X may be active on a target at one time. This may also spread out the burst a little.

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Acidic
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Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#8 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:41 pm

Azarael wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:12 pm .... morale bombing is necessary to break funnels and deal with zerg (despite it being itself a cause of massing). Any poster needs to explicitly address this....
I would agree that this is the go to defence of morals. in the post i have weakly described this with teh follwoing.
The princeple justification for aoe dps morals i have seen is bottleneck breaking, and small group vs large group, but this is not what they do. They can equaly well be used to rolf stomp at bottlenecks and splat a small group it just depends on who "123 dumps" first gets free kills.

Morals simply give a timed burst, this does not in anyway prevent the burst from bing used defensivly of offensivly. That is moral dump is equaly good for holding a choke point as breaking one.


Click here to watch on YouTube

Case in point the video of holding caledor keep with Ocara's warband last night ant the end of teh vid you see one of our defensive dumps.
This clearly shows that in that particular keep ground floor holding the morals are easier to be managed by the defending side as they can easily chose the time to dump, where as the incomming group has to get in place to to dump them.

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footpatrol2
Posts: 1093

Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#9 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:43 pm

Take off the AoE cap on damaging morales or don't.

Restore the 15 point morale's to their spec specific locations and reduce them back to 1 minute cooldown.

What your proposing Aza is what you were doing prior which is messing with stuff that shouldn't be messed with to fit your vision or relive what you went through previously with RoR. Your positioning yourself to make the same mistake.

This stuff isn't broke and is part of the overall class balance. Class balance is not exempt from what is happening with morale's.

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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2773

Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#10 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:03 pm

I've actually been against Morale dmg as far as I remember and advocate for changing it for years on these forums. But with that said I've also come to realize that it function as ballacer when it comes to the issues with gear and rank difference that I pressented. And i'm sorry but it's a complete valid argument for Morale damage nomather if you like it or not. With buffs/debuffs that increase the buffs/debuffs that use gear and rr modifier the stronger the allready strong gonna be relativly. It will end up with lowbies having to blob to stand a chance. And then what happens if the allready strong starts to blob? Morale dmg fixes these issues coz it's one of it's intent.

The sollution would be to remove the gear and rr difference almoast entirely ofc. But then you face a couple of other problems

A: The numbers will always be the strongest.
B: Finding a meaningful way of progression past lvl 40.

A: Is probobly impossible to solve.
B: Depends if you wana keep the progression carrot past lvl 40 or not. The idea is based on a buisness model and could probobly be scrapped entirely to come closer to equal outcome. But then it creates a new problem. C: People getting bored due to lack of progression and stop playing.
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