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Archtype Morales: Healers

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live4treasure
Posts: 270

Re: Archtype Morales: Healers

Post#11 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:03 am

We're actually debating how unimportant and useless the moral is, Tesq. The OP wanted to discuss it, so I provided a short overview of why it is never used by anyone, even dps healers and simply suggested that instead of making it a completely broken wounds debuff, its potency could simply be increased.

There's nothing much else to discuss, because the healer morales are balanced and useful the way they are. All that's left would be T4 Alter Fate which is arguably intended to stay bad so that healer mastery M4s would actually justify the inestment.
Giladar - rr 80 DPS AM

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Zxul
Posts: 1359

Re: Archtype Morales: Healers

Post#12 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:57 am

So you just want to nerf every single dps morale which healers got?

As a dps dok, and in forum acceptable terms, no thanks.

Especially as far as Steal Life morale, which is the one I most often use on dok.
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

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Ramasee
Posts: 457

Re: Archtype Morales: Healers

Post#13 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:03 am

Tesq wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:55 pm Are you seriusly gona debate the importance of steal life a moral one?!, ready after 2 sec in combat? Is a hybrid moral ok as it is, since the pure heal moral heal for 1200 this both dmg and heal for a total.of 1250 ( 900 dmg and 450 heals)..../fine.... I dont see evidence for change this as tooltips is perfectly in line.
Heal on divine favor is 1800. Also I will debate the usefulness of pretty much every tool that every class in the game has. Everything should have at the least a moderate situational use or group composition use.
live4treasure wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:34 pm Life steal ticks for 150 damage. Perhaps you could simply double the duration, making the total HP stolen 1200 instead of 600, thereby increasing the duration during which you can deliver the pressure. Alternatively, you can increase the duration by 50% instead and make each tick for 225 damage instead of 150, so that it at least deals about the non-crit damage of a dot. Something like that, perhaps. Maybe steal a bit or ap over the duration too, to give it an auxiliary effect to make the morale more appealing. Problem is, healers usually have Divine Favor, Class Morale 1 and then this. There's nothing you can feasibly do with this short of making it overpowered or steal aoe hp, healing your allies on an aoe for the amount stolen, to make it a viable option.

It's mostly used in pve to contribute a bit of damage to high damage mitigation bosses, I guess,
Thought about AP theft, but that tool is already provided as a "unique" bonus towards two healing careers. Everything can be made into a viable option. That doesn't mean it will be meta, but just because something won't be meta doesn't mean it can't be good. Currently even DPS healers rarely use this.

Halving the duration to 4.5s and keeping the values the same (so 3 ticks of 300 over 4.5s) might have it see some use.

Using your guy's input:

Alter Fate (alternate redesign) - Places a buff on all groupmates for 10s. At the end of 10s, all groupmates that are dead are resurrected to X% health (and still have rez sickness)

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@Zxul No I want to balance archtype morales and allow class based morales to fill the desires of the class. Also this is a discussion not a mandate, so I invite you to provide supportive comments and discussion to your idea that steal life in its 9s duration is a good morale and not just your only damage option. Also, remember you share these archtype morales with other healers, the 7 DoK morales would be looked at as step 2ish

Zxul
Posts: 1359

Re: Archtype Morales: Healers

Post#14 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:15 am

Ramasee wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:03 am @Zxul No I want to balance archtype morales and allow class based morales to fill the desires of the class. Also this is a discussion not a mandate, so I invite you to provide supportive comments and discussion to your idea that steal life in its 9s duration is a good morale and not just your only damage option. Also, remember you share these archtype morales with other healers, the 7 DoK morales would be looked at as step 2ish
Lets see.

1. Steal Life- 9 seconds duration, allowing you to put it on target before for example silence and spike. Actually a great option.
2. My opinion though is since you obviously have no idea what the morales are used for (see above), for you not to be the one doing this discussion.
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

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Ramasee
Posts: 457

Re: Archtype Morales: Healers

Post#15 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:26 am

Zxul wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:15 am
Ramasee wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:03 am @Zxul No I want to balance archtype morales and allow class based morales to fill the desires of the class. Also this is a discussion not a mandate, so I invite you to provide supportive comments and discussion to your idea that steal life in its 9s duration is a good morale and not just your only damage option. Also, remember you share these archtype morales with other healers, the 7 DoK morales would be looked at as step 2ish
Lets see.

1. Steal Life- 9 seconds duration, allowing you to put it on target before for example silence and spike. Actually a great option.
2. My opinion though is since you obviously have no idea what the morales are used for (see above), for you not to be the one doing this discussion.
Second point would only be valid for MDPS variant of this conversation, which I have actually stated in that thread. As for healer, I played a warrior priest on live with same name, Ramasee. I have a warrior priest and an archmage on RoR. I have been healing in MMOs for 19 years or so now. Also I am not "doing" the discussion. I started these threads to split the discussion that was happening in another thread and everyone that wants to is involved in them.

For the first point, are you talking about 6 man or 12 man? 150 morale damage every 1.5s is terrible easy to heal through in 6 man content, holding til M2 and rampaging for its 600 instant damage is infinitely more valuable in helping to burst someone down if that's what you are using your morales for.

Zxul
Posts: 1359

Re: Archtype Morales: Healers

Post#16 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:36 am

Ramasee wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:26 am
Second point would only be valid for MDPS variant of this conversation, which I have actually stated in that thread. As for healer, I played a warrior priest on live with same name, Ramasee. I have a warrior priest and an archmage on RoR. I have been healing in MMOs for 19 years or so now. Also I am not "doing" the discussion. I started these threads to split the discussion that was happening in another thread and everyone that wants to is involved in them.

For the first point, are you talking about 6 man or 12 man? 150 morale damage every 1.5s is terrible easy to heal through in 6 man content, holding til M2 and rampaging for its 600 instant damage is infinitely more valuable in helping to burst someone down if that's what you are using your morales for.
Lets see again.

1. First point is valid for every dps healer setting up spike to kill a healer.
2. I am talking about any "need to spike healer" situation. And the motale actually does 300 tick every 3 sec, so it is pretty easy to set 2 ticks to go off during 4 sec silence (or a 3 sec KD in team situation)- same 600 dmg, but without wasting a GCD for it. So once again, we are back at you posting about subject which you obviously have no idea about.
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

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Ramasee
Posts: 457

Re: Archtype Morales: Healers

Post#17 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:47 am

Zxul wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:36 am
Ramasee wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:26 am
Second point would only be valid for MDPS variant of this conversation, which I have actually stated in that thread. As for healer, I played a warrior priest on live with same name, Ramasee. I have a warrior priest and an archmage on RoR. I have been healing in MMOs for 19 years or so now. Also I am not "doing" the discussion. I started these threads to split the discussion that was happening in another thread and everyone that wants to is involved in them.

For the first point, are you talking about 6 man or 12 man? 150 morale damage every 1.5s is terrible easy to heal through in 6 man content, holding til M2 and rampaging for its 600 instant damage is infinitely more valuable in helping to burst someone down if that's what you are using your morales for.
Lets see again.

1. First point is valid for every dps healer setting up spike to kill a healer.
2. I am talking about any "need to spike healer" situation. And the motale actually does 300 tick every 3 sec, so it is pretty easy to set 2 ticks to go off during 4 sec silence (or a 3 sec KD in team situation)- same 600 dmg, but without wasting a GCD for it. So once again, we are back at you posting about subject which you obviously have no idea about.
1. What level of content?
2. Because in 6 man content for instance (balance does not happen outside of organized 6man or higher # content), if your team can manage to even get to their healer without being slowed to eternity while they kite, I would be impressed at your skill or your opponents lack of it. Also you would silence that healer, what about his buddy? I assume someone else from your team is tossing zealot stagger. And then what about guard, knockdowns, and roots on you or your other DPS?

Also are you saying you are opposed to both the initial proposal AND the secondary one about reducing the duration to 4.5s but keeping damage amount the same?

dansari
Posts: 2524

Re: Archtype Morales: Healers

Post#18 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:09 pm

Zxul wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:15 am
Either discuss the options without attempting to ridicule people or don't. Ramasee isn't facilitating discussion, but claiming he has no idea what he's talking about is simply unfounded bs.
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Zxul
Posts: 1359

Re: Archtype Morales: Healers

Post#19 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:50 pm

Ramasee wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:47 am 1. What level of content?
2. Because in 6 man content for instance (balance does not happen outside of organized 6man or higher # content), if your team can manage to even get to their healer without being slowed to eternity while they kite, I would be impressed at your skill or your opponents lack of it. Also you would silence that healer, what about his buddy? I assume someone else from your team is tossing zealot stagger. And then what about guard, knockdowns, and roots on you or your other DPS?

Also are you saying you are opposed to both the initial proposal AND the secondary one about reducing the duration to 4.5s but keeping damage amount the same?
Lets see again, modifying it a bit considering the dansari's request.

1. See the "any time you need to spike a healer".
2. The majority of the game is wb vs wb, where only aoe of different types really matters. The rest is mostly random pug encounters (or 6man vs random pug, where any "several dps on a single unguarded healer" works), with 6man vs 6man actually only being a tiny bit of the game, which really shouldn't be used to balance anything.
3. And all of those ( guard, knockdowns, and roots) have to do with discussing this morale what exactly?
4. Not to mention that if going solo vs ams on dok without charge (pretty much a worst possible situation vs kiting), I do manage to catch quite a few (positioning, CoC going off Fist, snare pot), then your team "slowed to eternity while they kite" does sounds like l2p issue (CoC, sh snares, mara m1 root, ets ets). Though again, if you do not manage to get to the healer anyway, no morales will matter- so what does it has to do with the discussion?
5. Initial proposal- in a forums acceptable terms again, a bad proposal. Secondary one of keeping total dmg the same but reducing the duration to 4.5s- I wouldn't mind, though would recommend considering the effects on say the 6man that you speak of (team with 2 heal healers + 2 dps healers = 3600 morale dmg over 4.5 sec on any target at any time, from 100 f away).
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

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Ramasee
Posts: 457

Re: Archtype Morales: Healers

Post#20 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:39 pm

2. It's in the ruleset about what they consider for balance. Nothing outside of good players playing 6v6 or higher number content is on the table. While bringing up its uses in solo or pug situations can provide valuable insight and help support an argument, but that alone doesn't hold up.

3. No class stands in a vacuum. Tools each class have is designed to be used in conjunction with other classes in group settings. Steal Life sees abysmal amount of play in most environments. I do not expect it to ever be really used in warbands (which is fine), but it could be better and still be balanced for use in 6 man.

4. I described a regular 6v6 fight. No good tank is going to let two mdps run off to go play with his healer. You don't have to kill a healer first to win an engagement. Morales are used for many reason, damage morales are usually used in conjunction with heal debuffs and CCs to burst a target that your whole team can hit at the moment.

5. I stated previously in this thread that my initial steal life proposal was kind of just placed to start the discussion. I supported a different change in the very post that started our quote conversation. Team with 2 healers and 2 dps healers could do 3600 damage over 4.5s at the same time 2 healers on the opposing team can pop divine favor at 1800 a pop. Taking life steal on your own teams healers removes divine favor as an option. And hey if you can make that work, that means the proposal would be fair.

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