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DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Proposals after the two week discussion period will be moved to this sub-forum for internal review.

Poll: Which approach do you prefer?

Specialization
72
58%
Hybridization
39
31%
None (explain in comments)
14
11%
Total votes: 125

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peterthepan3
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DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#1 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:48 pm

This poll will be open for 5 days, and will close on the 25th of October at 20.00 Altdorf

Note: please leave a comment justifying your vote. This will serve to help us come to a decision much more accurately, and may provide us with insight that could be valuable.

We need feedback on the intended role for Warrior Priest and Disciple of Khaine mastery path direction before going into significant discussions about the class. There are two options we can see going forward:

1. Grace/Sacrifice trees to perform a healing role from the front line with much less damage and the Wrath/Torture trees to perform closer to a dps role with much less group healing (in the form of lifetaps).

2. Both trees would maintain their hybridized approaches with only small changes.

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DanielWinner
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Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#2 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:55 pm

I'm all up for specialization because it's not a rocket science to understand that hybrides won't have much success outside of "pug-killing". Both classes must get better opportunities and become stronger in their paths by pushing up in certain trees: melee healing - more reliable heals and, therefore, better performance as a real heal/close to real one which is much more useful for a group; melee dps - can serve as a real dps without condemning a group due to lack of reliable damage.
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Aurandilaz
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Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#3 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:06 pm

Either specialize in healing or in dpsing. Hybrids will never work on same performance level as pure healers or pure dps, and will never be taken seriously in a proper setting where each class has their unique designated role where they are expected to perform at 100% efficiency compared to alternatives that can reach same levels of efficiency.

If they want to be "real" dps, they should be severely limited in their healing output and other possible utility options (resurrection, CC (punt), absorbs, detaunt options (ST limitation), cleanse loss, HoT loss...). For losing what other DPS cannot have, they should be then given tactics, dmg, ability tweaks which them allow them to perform alongside other dps picks.
Options like making Divine Fury cause even greater loss of healing but more damage, stronger burst options, etc.


Same with healing, but to lesser extent; if your choice is to bring support utility / health for your party, don't expect to really be capable of contributing to the damaging or enemy debuffing.

Hybrids have never worked in the past and rightly so, as if you give one class the option to be both good dps and healer, it will be absurdly stronger in their versatility and width of utility compared to "basic" dps or healers.
You want debuffs and buffs spread over classes so they complement each other, so that your team can be built on synergies, not on broken classes where some you pick the best few classes that are "jack of all trades".

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vanbuinen77
Posts: 222

Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#4 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:24 pm

52 dok dps spec.

I'm not sure what you are asking for in regards to dps dok having grp heals. They have next to no heals in dps spec, mainly a greatly nerfed hot that isnt used much. What they have is lifetaps which heal great but only for single target.

With healing speced doks healing on the front line, they seem to be fine with guard and aoe detaunt so I'm not sure what you want to change?

What is there to fix that isn't broken?

Or actually what do you think is not working?
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peterthepan3
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Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#5 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:28 pm

vanbuinen77 wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:24 pm 52 dok dps spec.

I'm not sure what you are asking for in regards to dps dok having grp heals. They have next to no heals in dps spec, mainly a greatly nerfed hot that isnt used much. What they have is lifetaps which heal great but only for single target.

With healing speced doks healing on the front line, they seem to be fine with guard and aoe detaunt so I'm not sure what you want to change?

What is there to fix that isn't broken?

Or actually what do you think is not working?
By 'group healing' I refer to their lifetap capabilities, which are incredible even in max Torture/Wrath.

Amended OP to make this clearer. Cheers.

My personal opinion is that a Wrath WP and Torture DOK ought to be able to fill in as a DPS. At the moment, a Torture DOK can already do that, but I would suggest: a) their lifetap capabilities ought to be reduced significantly (apart from solo lifetapping, as they need this to survive where other mdps have escape tools/defensive morales/base aoe detaunt); b) their damage be bumped slightly, so as to offset the loss in lifetap potential and/or other things. In my opinion, these things are necessary if we opt for a purist approach to the classes. I also do not think hybrids work in any PvP environment other than solo.

In regards to what I think is not working: Wrath DPS is lackluster and doesn't put out enough damage to warrant taking them over any other DPS class. I believe that the damage could be increased - but!!! - at the cost of reducing significantly their lifetap potential (and possibly other utility).
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vanbuinen77
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Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#6 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:31 pm

Then leave them as is. Their convent lifetaps don't heal the grp much since they have a icd.

Their dps is fine, the fact that they dont have a str tactic or gear outside of scens for dps was more of a issue
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Tesq
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Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#7 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:12 pm

Specialization but The thng is as follow, each. Masterys should provide a role

Caster Heal
Melee heal
Dmg

But the builds are not based on role. Builds options should be as follow:

1h+book/chalice
-Primary heal and secondary melee heal= backline healer with few melee heal option

-Primary melee heal and secondary heal= front line healer

2w/2h

-Primary melee heals and secondary dmg = low profile dmg dealer with a lot or self survability /potentialy utility (like def mara).

-Primary dmg and secondary melee heals= true damage dealer, less burst but/and with only some self survabiloty heals.

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used to enable difference in builds and to enforce those builds.

Edit: ah yes last thing even if dok is better i think if you look at wp as of currently may give you more and idea of what fit more my feedback.
Last edited by Tesq on Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:15 am, edited 10 times in total.
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Drys
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Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#8 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:24 pm

I think they should have a melee specialization. This is a unique healer role as opposed to back-line healers. It offers a different playstyle and fills a role allowing some heals with tanks/mdps that push out of range for back line helalers. To fill this role they should have strong heals based on small melee damage (e.g., 300%-500% of damage dealt but have severe limitations on generating high damage). They should also have good front line survivability.

For the DPS specialization they should retain some utility at a cost of DPS output. For instance keep rez ability but overall dps out may be 85-90% of average mdps. This again fills a unique role without outshining pure DPS. DPS should not have access to strong (or even decent) melee or cast heals.

One approach may be to have three tactics (or prayers) that do something like:
1. BACKLINE: Increase effectiveness of casted heals by x%, but decrease armor by y% and damage by z%
2. MELEE HEAL: Increase heal output from melee abilities by x% and casted heals by y% but reduce damage output by z%
3. DPS: increase damage output by x% but reduce melee heals by y% and casted heals by z%
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Panodil
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Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#9 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:29 pm

I like DoK like they are now. Not to high dps and most my heals from Transfer Essence goes to heal myself because very low Initative (130 without talis).
Only differnce between Torture and Wrath is the healdebuff tactic vs Guilty Soul. Best HD in the game yes. If damage is lower as WP it have to come down to 2h vs DW and not Torture vs Wrath
But you cant just buff Wrath without looking at Healspec where WP bring 20% more healing in largescale compared to the dok.
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Drozen
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Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#10 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:30 pm

Imo i dont see why you would wanna change anything of either of them, there tree's and abilities are fine. I do agree the dmg from a wrath priest is lack luster (and you may have read my suggestion of fixing that, wich wouldnt add any more to the healing) compared to the DoK's mirror. But having them filling in for a "proper" dps class (of wich there is plenty) is not ok and should not be a alternative, as it sits now you can take a healers spot while adding extra damage, wich i do feel is more the intended use of a wp/dok.
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