Return of Reckoning

I assume that Belladona's thread was closed, not because topic should not be discussed but as it was giving vibe of whine and was not named in accordance with rules. Here I ask everyone interested to give their input on DPS tree after rework, stronger\weaker sides of it compared to prepatch state to give Devs more information to work with.
Down bellow I list my own opinion and you can find already posted in previous thread opinions of others under spoilers.

I can speak only of DPS tree of DoK (torture) as I have not yet tried shield spec.
I like the concept of changes and on paper it seems DoKs life would be better. Love that you addressed the armour pen problem, good that it was done!
Now to the problems I saw so far, before patch DPS DoK was able to put medium but constant amount of damage, as there were no burst, but abilities that gave sustain. 15pt ability gave enough maneuverability to reach low armoured backline to capitalize onmentioned sustain skills, as they scale with damage.
After patch we have:

• little to no ability to counter kitting (with 15pt ability taken - niether covenant nor melee slow will help you if you are not lucky and to survive until m2 is a miracle);

• self sustaining was cut significantly due to lack of selfheal (new skill with 100% convertion is viable only on squishes which are able to kite you);

• no burst was added;

• squishiness is still there;

• you can now buff your armor pen.

Overall.
Armorpenbuff is good, but it does not give much possibilities to use DoKs kit, kitting problems aside, If prepatch you met two tanks duo with tank-dok, you were not able to kill them due to lack of armor pen, now you cant kill them either but you will inevitably drop down as you have little to no lifetaps against high armoured targets.
Lack of burst, CC and overall squishiness, which is not compensated by high sustain anymore, puts DPS DoK behind full DPS classes, which encourages to look for bigger group set up to have all mentioned abilities and heal with you, what makes DPS DoK desired in such group is yet to be determined, I am not sure that healdebuff makes up for all the things lacking.

roadkillrobin adamthelc Unstoppable1776 Luuca Bozzax If I forgot someone - feel free to post what I have missed.

DPS DOK damage is actually increased with this patch. You can do more than sufficient levels of damage to justify a spot in a group (don't even mention the heal debuff).

Mobility issues are a thing, it's true, but even before charge was implemented, DPS DOK was still a viable addition to a group. Some form of snare removal could be on the agenda, but the DPS DOK/WP need to maintain some weakness - and that weakness has (traditionally) been in the form of mobility issues.

Divine Strike/CE are open to some tinkering, if necessary. Main reason for their inclusion was to help the DPS specs out a bit - while not offering overly-good group heals (TE/SR). If that isn't the case right now, it can be looked at, for sure.

All feedback is being taken seriously, so do keep it coming (in a productive, non-whiney manner).

peterthepan3 wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 3:49 pm DPS DOK damage is actually increased with this patch. You can do more than sufficient levels of damage to justify a spot in a group (don't even mention the heal debuff).

Mobility issues are a thing, it's true, but even before charge was implemented, DPS DOK was still a viable addition to a group. Some form of snare removal could be on the agenda, but the DPS DOK/WP need to maintain some weakness - and that weakness has (traditionally) been in the form of mobility issues.

Divine Strike/CE are open to some tinkering, if necessary. Main reason for their inclusion was to help the DPS specs out a bit - while not offering overly-good group heals (TE/SR). If that isn't the case right now, it can be looked at, for sure.

All feedback is being taken seriously, so do keep it coming (in a productive, non-whiney manner).

Before charge was added DPS DoK had a little bigger kit on him to use
Main objection to thing said I have is this - as damage feels increased you still deal less in the end, due to DPS DoK's self sustain is limited to doublepot and m2 (until you reach something squishy), so your presence on the field ends far faster than before.
About Divine Strike/CE one of solutions could be limiting heal only to self while adding some constant number (lower than on transfer essence) of heal per hit.

I havent tested it yet but, is solo PVE DoK still viable?

Yes, with slight damage buff and CE in place pve is same if not easier than before.

Sounds good ty

I think I will post it here too

DanielWinner wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:09 am Just a little suggestion:
I think, it would be fair to give those classes a skill based on the shield. The main part of it should be related to healing: for example, “You heal your allies for X health every time you block an enemy attack”.

DanielWinner wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:23 pm I think I will post it here too

DanielWinner wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:09 am Just a little suggestion:
I think, it would be fair to give those classes a skill based on the shield. The main part of it should be related to healing: for example, “You heal your allies for X health every time you block an enemy attack”.

Interesting idea, even as shield is not for DPS spec
The only thing I fear when I hear about "heal on hit" concept and it's variations is that suicide Khainites/Sigmarites will become a thing.
I can see same type of effect for DPS build which will add a bit more sustain - through tactic or not % of physical crit damage could be converted to self-heal.
For example 10-15% will give no more than 100-170 in best conditions and won't pass 70 in real ones. It won't be enough to keep DoK/WP unkillable, but by changing % numbers it will be easy to balance.

Couple of things that could help the shield melee healing dok/wp

- Make warding strike (and some WP skill) a dot, have it heal your group for damage x +X% every time it ticks. Shield only. think pious restoration but for melee healing.
- Some kind of melee cleanse tactic. So every time you strike your target with a specific ability it cleanses one hex or curse or aliment from your party members. Shield only
- To get around the issue of not being able to heal when there are no melee targets or being kited you could make a tactic or place an added bonus effect on judgement/fist of khaine when using a shield. Making this ability heal for the damage dealt + X%. So say you hit with judgement for 300 damage, it might heal your defensive target for like 600.

altharion1 wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:13 am Couple of things that could help the shield melee healing dok/wp

- Make warding strike (and some WP skill) a dot, have it heal your group for damage x +X% every time it ticks. Shield only. think pious restoration but for melee healing.
- Some kind of melee cleanse tactic. So every time you strike your target with a specific ability it cleanses one hex or curse or aliment from your party members. Shield only
- To get around the issue of not being able to heal when there are no melee targets or being kited you could make a tactic or place an added bonus effect on judgement/fist of khaine when using a shield. Making this ability heal for the damage dealt + X%. So say you hit with judgement for 300 damage, it might heal your defensive target for like 600.

Good stuff.