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Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

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Grock
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Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#121 » Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:05 am

I'll repeat just in case: change from 75% mitigation to 60% mitigation means instead of taking 4 times less damage you'll be taking only 2.5 times less damage. Thats almost twice weaker.

ID is already contested by morales like Axe Slam or Solar Flare. Its a matter of different roles and uses, not just basic power contest.
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Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#122 » Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:19 pm

Grock wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:05 am I'll repeat just in case: change from 75% mitigation to 60% mitigation means instead of taking 4 times less damage you'll be taking only 2.5 times less damage. Thats almost twice weaker.

ID is already contested by morales like Axe Slam or Solar Flare. Its a matter of different roles and uses, not just basic power contest.
You don't need to repeat yourself. It's a big nerf, that's the point.
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Ysaran
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Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#123 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:32 pm

So... what will be of this discussion?
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Natherul
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Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#124 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:12 am

Ysaran wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:32 pm So... what will be of this discussion?
As per the defined status of balance board we will collect feedback, look if it was ok. If not revise with feedback and if it was good then work on implementation

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OndeTv
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Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#125 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:48 am

I won't pretend to have read all the content in this thread, and i also realize that the title of this thread focuses specifically on tank morales. However, that being said, the past couple of months there has been an increasing amount of focus on both factions towards the age old bombing warband meta (which was already a problem back in live even after several nerfs). And while a bombing warband can occasionally be fun for both factions to participate in and fight against, they quickly become a nuissance for both sides, especially for the unfortunate players running in unorganized warbands running into such warbands.

The main problem revolves especially around the sorcerer M2 Shatter and the bright wizard M2 Ruin and Destruction combined with each of these classes morale pump tactics Glorious Carnage and Embrace the flames, which enables an almost instant buildup to M2. The problem is not limited to these classes however.

Personally i would love to see aoe damage morales completely removed from the game or moved to non core M4 only. I think aoe debuffs or singletarget DD morales would be much better for the game as a whole. Let us be honest here: We love this game because we love good fights. AoE DD morale bombs work directly against this. Removing them will promote better and longer fights as well as playing smarter rather than following a dump-it-all-here mantra.

Do also note that i post this as a sorceress main player who often participate in organized warbands utilizing "the bomb", so i am effectively proposing to take this away from "my own" class (as well as fellow faction classes as well as their mirrors). But as an old player i strongly feel this would be in the best interest for the game and its players as a whole.
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WeGotThis
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Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#126 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:25 pm

OndeTv wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:48 am Personally i would love to see aoe damage morales completely removed from the game or moved to non core M4 only. I think aoe debuffs or singletarget DD morales would be much better for the game as a whole. Let us be honest here: We love this game because we love good fights. AoE DD morale bombs work directly against this. Removing them will promote better and longer fights as well as playing smarter rather than following a dump-it-all-here mantra.
I kind off agree with you, i the other hand, talking for me, i never play WB.. only Smallscale.
And when you gank a warband at keepfight or at key possition in the zone the only way to stand achance is Moral.
I mean if the Warband is organized, there are 6 choppas pulling everything together and you are dead befor even M1 is up.
But in fight when you can build moral the only way to melt their Frontline is Moral. Removing such would force even more ppl in Warband zergs. You already took RD and CW from us, dps Moral would be neckbreaker for smallscale...

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Ekundu01
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Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#127 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:45 pm

OndeTv wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:48 am I won't pretend to have read all the content in this thread, and i also realize that the title of this thread focuses specifically on tank morales. However, that being said, the past couple of months there has been an increasing amount of focus on both factions towards the age old bombing warband meta (which was already a problem back in live even after several nerfs). And while a bombing warband can occasionally be fun for both factions to participate in and fight against, they quickly become a nuissance for both sides, especially for the unfortunate players running in unorganized warbands running into such warbands.

The main problem revolves especially around the sorcerer M2 Shatter and the bright wizard M2 Ruin and Destruction combined with each of these classes morale pump tactics Glorious Carnage and Embrace the flames, which enables an almost instant buildup to M2. The problem is not limited to these classes however.

Personally i would love to see aoe damage morales completely removed from the game or moved to non core M4 only. I think aoe debuffs or singletarget DD morales would be much better for the game as a whole. Let us be honest here: We love this game because we love good fights. AoE DD morale bombs work directly against this. Removing them will promote better and longer fights as well as playing smarter rather than following a dump-it-all-here mantra.

Do also note that i post this as a sorceress main player who often participate in organized warbands utilizing "the bomb", so i am effectively proposing to take this away from "my own" class (as well as fellow faction classes as well as their mirrors). But as an old player i strongly feel this would be in the best interest for the game and its players as a whole.
The only problem i see with nerfing aoe morales is in funnel situations where the only way you are breaking the line is to use aoe morale dumps. Long fights are great for keeps in the lakes but in timed stuff like forts and i suspect city seiges will be timed as well you can't afford to have a stalemate fight. If they nerf aoe morales they would have to balance the stalemate situations or else no one will be dieing. Having aoe capped at 9 targets combined with how powerful healing is combined with HTL spam and you have 80-90 players on each side means you really won't be able to kill much in situations where say a bottom floor defense happens in a fort.
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madrocks
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Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#128 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:16 pm

I am glad you are taking your time to improve this game. I will drop my thoughts in this post and you can do what you want with it. Bare with me and crank up the attention span. In the end if we all want to play this game on this server we are bound to accept those changes and we will probably adapt.

Without knowing what the other classes will have to go through I can't say much about those Tank moral overhaul changes. But some of those tweaked values look a bit to high to me. Maybe go more easy on it, watch the impact and then go a step further.
Yet it looks quite good and towards a proper direction.

Slightly off topic, but not to far off to be honest:
Spoiler:
Looking at the bigger picture I strongly agree with OndeTv post. The long term game health and fun is on the edge when the actual fight last 10 seconds. All those defensive and utility morals overhauls are questionable if it takes less then 6 seconds to reach an undefendable 1.2k aoe m2 on classes that can boost their own moral gain.
The actual sadly returning meta with organized war bands and pug war bands in oRVR as OndeTv stated perfectly, is a Moral pump race to M2. Hardly speaking of a race, it's more like 2 step to the finish line.
All those fancy utility skills that all classes have, that require proper coordination and preparation and that would give an edge are negated. There is simply no time to use them or pointless on choke points, because undefendable +20*1200 30' aoe fart.
I am excluding some aoe CC utilities here. In almost all situations M2 is up for one side before the actual clash happens.
It's the same old nonsense story, you all know it: "blablablabla, if you don't M2 fart in 3, 2, 1 it's a shitty war band and you don't decide the stalemate" <- Bullshit, boooooring!
So many classes, so many combinations, yet one function negates it all.
I disagree with touching Raze again, since you moved it from m2 to m3 after the glorious massacre of countless Order in Chaos Wastes with the tank war band.
Limiting it to a 2h tank is questionable, as Tesq said for example, it is interuptable. SnB tank like to do other things then just spamming HTL and challange.
PVE aggro management with raze, interesting choice. Defensive M4 is the "ohshit" button in pve in my experience.
Some bosses just reset aggro, a Raze of a tank was out of question for us, yet.

M4 - Khaine's Warding - Tank Tree
Please don't touch this. It's neat, just because some people can't think out of the box with war band compositions since they are stuck in 2010 it does not mean it's useless.

M1 - Quit Yer Squabblin'
Current - 100' party buff, 10% parry and dodge for 30s

I think 30sec is very long indeed.. lower it to 15?

M1 - Wings of Heaven
Current - Pounce up to 100' feet (really?) to your target. Snare enemies in the area by 60% for 10s

Yeah.. I think it's a cool M1 and way underrated. I wish someone on Destruction had that. However I would reduce the range somewhere the SM can actually be hit but keep it as it is, no aoe damage.

The inbalance on inevitable choke points at keeps in the last months is obvious. I think most players agree. Solar Flare.
Introduced for the Kotbs and not for any Destruction class. I am still questioning why this state has to endure over months.
I agree with a moral reset ability, but not like this gentlemen.
Last edited by madrocks on Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:32 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Davjen
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Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#129 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:18 pm

I would honestly just make morale bomb blockable with dodge disrupt and other things. At this stage of the game I honestly don't see the point of macking "main stats/DPS" build when everything is just morale with fixed damage. Just get a BW or Sorcerer as tabky as possible with wounds Armor and **** the rest. Now fights are just a morale race, the one getting it faster win. I don't think remove is a thing. Either need the damage from instant to tick (like raze) or just let people dodge it like all other skills. Bombing is a thing in every game but here is the first time I see a crazy **** idea of a 100% fixed damage to use for bombing.

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Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#130 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:45 am

Like a few posts above I would keep wings of heaven at 100ft but remove or substantially nerf the snare and aoe.

Putting it in M1 makes it hard to take over chch or the armor debuff.

Guard of steel can be kept m1 but made a solo buff only.

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