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[WL] AoE spec too strong for city siege

Swordmaster, Shadow Warrior, White Lion, Archmage

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Sigford
Posts: 25

Re: [WL] AoE spec too strong for city siege

Post#141 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:51 am

carlos wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:08 pm
dansari wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:30 am
Tired: WL is too strong when fully stacked

Wired:
Sigford wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:11 pm
Morale drain/ap drain is only worth it if they're stacked fully
Love this!
As mentioned before 6+ Maras isn't a viable composition for pretty much anything else you fight. Plus only matters if you can get all the White Lions in once spot. As soon as they catch a slight whiff of having no AP they just pounce around away from the Maras cause who's gonna catch them? (Nobody) 6 White Lions counter pretty much everything lol

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dansari
Posts: 2499

Re: [WL] AoE spec too strong for city siege

Post#142 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:25 am

LOOOOL inb4 this is shown to be ezpz in shutting down any order opposition and we've been enduring destro whine for weeks.

https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... mt=5210&t=
<Salt Factory>

Dansarann / SW
Dansaram / RP
Dansaren / BW
Dansarii / Eng
Dansari / WH

Goreth
Posts: 2

Re: [WL] AoE spec too strong for city siege

Post#143 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:53 am

225 morale drain
40 ap over 3 seconds on a crit
aoe KD
50% build time increaser on 10 second ability
aoe interrupt on same ability
Aoe initiative debuff

Destro does not lose if you bring smart mara and stick in the blob with them its as simple as that. Blob v blob game play is in favor of destro you simply have to use the tools available to you. Glad you finally realized how strong destro could be maybe if everyone on destro starts running 2-4 mara in every city with this build the morale drain/ap drain will be fixed so they do not both stack from multiple users.
Traale and all his brothers

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Secrets
Developer
Posts: 192

Re: [WL] AoE spec too strong for city siege

Post#144 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:23 am

hey

so guys

i know you think mara AP drain is overpowered but

hey, hey

listen,

there's something more

so get this

7pc warlord for slayer, choppa, mara, and WL

go look at it

look. at. it.

come back to this thread when you've done that.

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Secrets
Developer
Posts: 192

Re: [WL] AoE spec too strong for city siege

Post#145 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:32 am

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notre
Posts: 68

Re: [WL] AoE spec too strong for city siege

Post#146 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:03 am

Secrets wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:23 am
hey

so guys

i know you think mara AP drain is overpowered but

hey, hey

listen,

there's something more

so get this

7pc warlord for slayer, choppa, mara, and WL

go look at it

look. at. it.

come back to this thread when you've done that.
The OP has give you a more or less well writen post, with arguments, like you always ask for...

You already know the WL has too many tools (can put the two imnunities on you at the same time, give a counter chance, dude),
does too many damage (1k pounce...wiiiii)
and the pet it's too "featured" compared to any other pet (lava inmune, CC inmune while you are mounted ;), etc..)

You know the WL class is broken, and you still defend it and laugh over any person who says anything about the WL. Shame on you.

And the issue isn't only on the WL, a single BW can wipe an entire wb in the city reaching almost 1kk of damage before getting the champion buff, don't need "critical mass" anymore.

A quick remember:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvqwom74xZg&t=1226s
8x -> Zealot
7x -> rSH, Shammy Heal
6x -> Sorcerer, Magus
5x -> Shammy dps, BWizard
4x -> DoK, Wich Elf, Choppa, Chosen
3x -> Mara, BG, Zealot dps
2x -> BO, 3rd Shammy, mSH

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Grock
Posts: 435

Re: [WL] AoE spec too strong for city siege

Post#147 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:47 am

Sigford wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:51 am
As mentioned before 6+ Maras isn't a viable composition for pretty much anything else you fight. Plus only matters if you can get all the White Lions in once spot. As soon as they catch a slight whiff of having no AP they just pounce around away from the Maras cause who's gonna catch them? (Nobody) 6 White Lions counter pretty much everything lol
So you just figured out how to counter and stop this crazy unstoppable slaughter, and its still not good enough of a solution for you?
Secrets wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:23 am
7pc warlord for slayer, choppa, mara, and WL
Or 4 years old Beastlord

Also whoever made Warlord set for Slayer/Choppa didn't even look at how our middle tree looks at all.
Bursty 2 hander spec with aa haste and ap drain? come on
Orkni
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Nefarian78
Posts: 378

Re: [WL] AoE spec too strong for city siege

Post#148 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:25 am

This thread is still going and seems not a lot have yet figured out that this warband's win condition is reaching critical mass via interrupts and cast setback.

I get that this is, objectively, a cancerous win-condition (and it should be looked at) but it does have some counters. Getting 2-3 marauders with AP drains does help a lot vs Slayers and White Lions. Not wasting any KD immunity (like it happens all the time with pugs) is also very effective in countering this particular comp.

Class stacking is a thing and it's not going away (sadly). Besides, there's worse class stack combos than that. 6 Mara AP draining and Slayers reaching 425%+ critcal strike multiplier and being undefendable are both a thing.

The thing that needs to be looked at is both Mara's and WL's interrupts CD and aoe channel setback in general. Retribution, Wrecking Ball, Whirlwing Axe should all get adjusted.
Last edited by Nefarian78 on Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Vorak - Capulet

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Secrets
Developer
Posts: 192

Re: [WL] AoE spec too strong for city siege

Post#149 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:38 am

notre wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:03 am
The OP has give you a more or less well writen post, with arguments, like you always ask for...

You already know the WL has too many tools (can put the two imnunities on you at the same time, give a counter chance, dude),
does too many damage (1k pounce...wiiiii)
and the pet it's too "featured" compared to any other pet (lava inmune, CC inmune while you are mounted ;), etc..)

You know the WL class is broken, and you still defend it and laugh over any person who says anything about the WL. Shame on you.

And the issue isn't only on the WL, a single BW can wipe an entire wb in the city reaching almost 1kk of damage before getting the champion buff, don't need "critical mass" anymore.

A quick remember:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvqwom74xZg&t=1226s
The WL cannot open with both immunities. They have a silence for 4s, a knockdown for 3 on a single target (both of these share the same immunity) and share the same morale root with Marauder.
Marauder has a silence, AOE knockdown, and a mirror of the morale root WL gets.

If you think a 1k pounce is even remotely the issue with WL, boy, do I have news for you... one, the base damage of pounce isn't close to 1k. The critical damage on both of the classes listed in your screenshot might be somewhat close to that, provided that you don't have armor talismans; judging by your game knowledge in this post, I doubt you have armor talismans. You're probably specced full willpower and are rage posting because of your poor life decisions. Let me tell you; a 1k pounce that triggers 1.5s after the GCD is the least of your problems. I'd say Force Opportunity (regularly hits no futile strike healers with zero armor for 1.6k), Coordinated Strike for maybe 600-800x4 on a light armor target (even though we nerfed that ability, if you forgot), and Pack Assault (basically the same damage as Force Opportunity - but wait, there's more - everyone in the group on the next hit also does a bit of damage too, if they're near the WL when they use it!) - I've even seen some execute ability (Cull the Weak) crits for 1.8k on a good day.

The interrupt? Cool, you stop casting for maybe 0.3 seconds and - get this - you can press the BUTTON THAT HEALS AGAIN. Novel concept. It's not making it go on a long cooldown. Can literally cast again. And that interrupt has a 15s cooldown. How many WLs actually get a Swordmaster for Whispering Winds interrupts every 10s? What's the uptime on that - not 100%? You mean Whispering Winds has a COOLDOWN? ABSURD!
Literally any class attacking a caster can set them back, btw. It just so happens that positioning is a thing. More on that later in this post!

But wait - those damage numbers above are bigger numbers than pounce! Holy crap! That's amazing, isn't it?

WRONG. Let me let you in on something. DPS Warrior Priest does more damage in a single attack.
Guilty Soul x4 on a Wrath of Sigmar (execute) crit? Say goodbye to your health bar. It'll deal literally 2-3k damage. In a single ability. On top of the guilty soul DoT that comes during it that doesn't crit, but holy Sigmar wills that it deals 1k+ over 9 seconds. And you bet it's coming to your face.

BUT WAIT- there's more!
Warrior Priests can basically do the same damage as a WL in AOE, provided they have a Swordmaster to pop Whispering Winds. You know that Smite ability? It's pretty cool, most use it to get righteous fury back up on a healer. But hold the phone; what's 5 seconds minus 5 seconds? 0 seconds, meaning off GCD? Holy Sigmar! That's a lot of Smites that can be followed up by execute on a now-5s GCD. They apply a heal debuff (incoming) every 10s, 5s with Whispering Winds. They also can bypass 25% armor. White Lion only gets that on like, what, 2 AOE attacks with the Hack and Slash tactic? AND- it lasts 20 seconds? And you have the nads to call White Lion OP because 'muh pounce does 1k!!111' - no, sir, I don't know what game you're playing, but that's not a lot - are you sure you didn't stumble into the wrong server on accident because I'm not sure we are playing the same game at all.

Oh, I didn't even mention SHADOW. WARRIORS. which have 60% crit in Assault stance, or '20% armor pen, tournament winning rampaging CHAMPIONS' of a class named Slayer. If you'd like me to banepost (hi Halta) about these classes, I'd be more than glad to - just not in the AOE WL shitpost thread.

Look, I know moving out of AOEs is hard for destro and that spreading out to avoid morale bombs and other AOE skills like whirling axe is impossible for you guys, especially when the top warband guilds on Destro are in 2019 warband strats when we're in 2020 spreading out and using rampaging siphon to avoid morale drops. Next you're gonna tell me avoiding a Bright Wizard's AOE M2 is impossible when you have a class that, as of this post, can ensure you can never reach that point? Or did you guys figure out positioning yet and move into the current decade?

The pet. Oh boy, the pet. The pet is pretty much a squig herder pet that cannot attack at range and needs to connect with its target to do any of its abilities. Every pet in the game, including the Squig Herder, Engineer, and Magus pets are immune to lava, have CC immunity while mounted, and so on and so forth. It's *just as squishy* as any other pet as it literally has the armor of a **** paper towel.

Oh, but you wouldn't know about that pet - as the primary AOE WL spec for warbands doesn't have you use one and has you run Loner, so presenting an argument that the WL pet is OP in a situation where it just doesn't exist is not only absurd, but abso-****-lutely hilarious.

If you still want to argue that WL is broken when *literally every other order DPS does what WL does except better*, just consider this: you're upset that a developer plays the class, and it's easier to blame the developers for making the game too hard than to realize that the arguments you are making are just plain not based in reality. Especially when said developer is vocal and quite honestly, a big memer with a big heart. But please - continue to think that WL is the most OP class on order and that it needs tuned down and don't blame your gear, gear choices, your warband composition, the individual skill of the players in your warband, the tactics/mastery/renown spec you're running, the average renown level of the players in your warband, or the synergy between you and 23 other people you barely know that wanted in your city warband from /5 chat... makes you think, doesn't it?

Nerdslayer was right, btw. Balance was a big concern on live. I'm glad we've corrected a lot of the issues from live and balanced the game lightyears ahead of the game that was available on live, from the bottom up we've reduced the gear gap in half (each gear set is 5 item levels apart on average instead of 10 item levels on live) and tons of countless class changes that have made the game fun to play again, while keeping class-defining mechanics in and balanced.

It's not perfect, and we're far from done. We're not operating on 'feels-based' criticism though.

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Grock
Posts: 435

Re: [WL] AoE spec too strong for city siege

Post#150 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:50 am

In the end, moral of the story: Interrupt needs immunity to prevent chain-CC like every other CC, and Pounce/SquigLeap should never had 0s cooldown.
Maybe 10s with Loner and 20s base could be alright, but compared to every other class even that CD is extremely short for that kind of ability, especially since they both still have their class's core mobility - charge and self-punt.

/thread
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