Return of Reckoning

Trying to be as objectiive as possible about which Mirror is better in City for both factions. I know that they aren't all exact mirrors but its the best comparison you can get.

Squig Herder >>>>> Shadow Warrior - MSH is just much better with its aoe damage and cooldown increaser that it actually gets a spot in City WB
Warrior Priest ===== DOK - For healing both the same, could put DOK ahead as you can actually play a DPS DOK in City and do well but can't for DPS WP
Zealot ===== Rune Priest - Zealot is actually better because of their morale increase tactic and have that bouncy thing, but for core healing ability they are mirrored
Shaman >>>>> Archmage -For City AM is a nightmare as they are the first to be targeted and don't have anywhere near the survivability as Shammy, meaning its much tougher as AM
Black Guard >>>>> Iron Breaker - BG with mind killer against healers, aoe parry/block debuff, mechanic which starts better in fights means its still much better than IB despite the tiny buffs IB got
Black Ork >>>>> Swordmaster - skills like cooldown increaser, aoe disorient make BO better
Knight ===== Chosen - very close, could say Knight is a little better but the margins are small to make a difference as both are good tanks
Slayer >>> Choppa - I would say both are equal, Slayer slightly more damage, Choppa a bit more utility with GTDC and better racial tactics but unless I put Slayer ahead Des will moan too much
Marauder >>>>> While Lion - In City While Lion pet gets melted, Mara has better aoe utility and survivability, i'm sure Des pug players will say WL is better because of Pounce but those in the know are aware that in City Mara is still better
Bright Wizard >>>>> Sorc - Sorc still good but BW does a bit more aoe damage
Magus ===== Engineer - Both do a similar role and damage in City
Witch Elf ===== Witch Hunter - WH could get a spot for Dragon Gun, but for core role in City both the same

Des 5 better class mirrors, Order 2, 5 equal

If you disagree explain why?

WL is frontline brust class, Mara has utility. İf wl get mara's properties then no need any other class. WL is far better class than Mara. You ppl thinks that Mara is too op but Mara only spam one aeo skill, kd and aeo distrupt. Mara's aeo damage very low compared to others. But order only looks at the damage score and says that WOoooo Mara is too op.

wildwindblows wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:42 pm WL is frontline brust class, Mara has utility. İf wl get mara's properties then no need any other class. WL is far better class than Mara. You ppl thinks that Mara is too op but Mara only spam one aeo skill, kd and aeo distrupt. Mara's aeo damage very low compared to others. But order only looks at the damage score and says that WOoooo Mara is too op.

1. Mara only spam aoe kd and aoe disrupt (better than wl's), these skills are HUGE in city's close quarters and add-up to destro's already strong utility
2. Mara damage is not very low, it is not even low.
3. after recent changes mara is not too op anymore, class with high utility and survivability should not have high aoe damage
4. Yes mara and WL are different, st wl>mara and vice versa in aoe spec, but this topic is about city not small-scale play

Order has always been this way unfortunately. Order's strengths lie in a few classes that are effectively overstacked in terms of relative power (in comparison to other Order classes), that have deep synergy with each other. If you aren't one of those classes, then you may get 1 spot at best in a city wb usually.

I.e. the way to win cities on Order is to play to the strengths of the classes that are strong, and ignore the classes that aren't. This basically means stacking slayers/bws (with the occasional wl/wh/engie), warrior presists and runepriests, and knights and swordmasters.

I don't like how it works currently, but that's the way to win city on Order with an organized group. Effectively you want 5-6 slayers usually, fill the rest of the dps with players who know how to play their classes (depends if you running a single target team or not), at least 4-5 warrior priests, with the rest runies, and then you want 4 knights and 4 sms.

That being said, Destro has their unwanted classes too, but their unwanted classes are generally slightly better in the city than Orders variants (as the OP points out, examples being things like Shaman > AM, destro doesn't want more then 1 shaman either usually). So what this means is that destro can go into a city with a less than perfect comp and still do relatively well, which is just not always true for Order.

I would say its more or less correct.

And that it was always this way is not entirely correct.
The balance changes of one specific (former) dev were just abyssal and it would be far better to revert all changes (even the few really good ones, to have a clean start) that happened to class balance when he was in charge and start balance classes from scratch again(before he took control), instead of trying to balance now around with what we have.

Arbich wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:35 pm I would say its more or less correct.

And that it was always this way is not entirely correct.
The balance changes of one specific (former) dev were just abyssal and it would be far better to revert all changes (even the few really good ones, to have a clean start) that happened to class balance when he was in charge and start balance classes from scratch again(before he took control), instead of trying to balance now around with what we have.

Fair enough, I was being general and mostly referencing that Order also "vaguely" worked this same way on live (with of course some nuances/differences, such as WHs actually being wanted). There is certainly a lot of volatility in the history of balance in RoR though, you aren't wrong!

Gurf wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:21 am but those in the know are aware that in City Mara is still better

Who are those people?

I would say that WP is better than DoK in city, with the wounds buff, pair it with a RP and you've got Init and Wounds buffs covered.

Your point about how Shaman is better than AM in city is just as true for RP vs Zealot, RP has a lot more defense than a zealot.

Yes Melee Squig is better than ASW in city, but ranged SW actually seems to be doing damage now instead, which rSH doesn't. And SW brings Hunters fervor.

Slayer vs. Choppa, you talk about how AoE cd increaser is good on mSH and then forget it here.

WL vs. Mara, who plays with pet in city? Have you heard of the Loner AXE GOES WHRRRR spec? Infinite pounce with AoE interrupt, it's really good when well utilized.

Engi vs. Magus My opinion is that both careers are under utilized, but engi has some really nice synergies with BW, their dmg reduction m2 is also not a bad slot and Concussive mine is a tactic I feel is way stronger than people think.
But I agree, I see them as about equally balanced.

KotBS outshines Chosen until you hit BiS and RR 80, with access to tactics such as Dirty Tricks and Focused Mending and abilities like Vicious slash, On Your Guard!, Stay Focused and Vigilance.
Sure chosen gets 50% parry vs. 10% block and 15% parry but that only makes the chosen better when they're both BiS when it comes to avoidance.

BO vs SM, Think both are good, SM being more offensive and BO being more defensive, I feel it's situational which one is the better. With WW/WAAAAAAAGH! they're both really good in city, that said
BO is probably the better overall tank.

AM vs Shaman, Shaman is way more defensive yes, but so is RP vs. zealot (which is way more offensive instead) overall I think they're quite similar but there's a higher skill cap need to make a healing AM really shine. Shaman probably has the edge though because of it's more defensive nature and the easier morale pump mechanic, but the AM healing and puddle is also really good in the hands of a capable healer.

BG vs. IB, neither is great in city wbs. BG is the better career imho, not for mind killer + tactic in my opinion but because of the fact that they gain Hatred from hitting things. The absorb, Crimson death, 2x interrupts, FoF and having Wave of Scorn in the defensive tree vs. a tree that lacks and group utility really makes IB feel inferior to BG.

I think the only main difference between RP and Zealot survivability is that RP gets a racial armour tactic, pretty much all core skills, heals and tactics are exactly the same, potentially Zelaot can have more with Wind of Insanity and speed of morale. If I had a choice between armour or morale tactic I would take morale.

I think the survivability between AM and Shammy is by far the biggest difference, to the extent that AM is often the first to be targeted while Shammy one of the last

Sundowner wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:01 pm

wildwindblows wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:42 pm WL is frontline brust class, Mara has utility. İf wl get mara's properties then no need any other class. WL is far better class than Mara. You ppl thinks that Mara is too op but Mara only spam one aeo skill, kd and aeo distrupt. Mara's aeo damage very low compared to others. But order only looks at the damage score and says that WOoooo Mara is too op.

1. Mara only spam aoe kd and aoe disrupt (better than wl's), these skills are HUGE in city's close quarters and add-up to destro's already strong utility
2. Mara damage is not very low, it is not even low.
3. after recent changes mara is not too op anymore, class with high utility and survivability should not have high aoe damage
4. Yes mara and WL are different, st wl>mara and vice versa in aoe spec, but this topic is about city not small-scale play

İ dont know what are u saying. WL and Mara have almost equal aeo. They both have 50% armor penet with aeo tactic and aeo distrupt. Mara has aoe kd and that is the difference. WLs aoe damage far better than Mara. Also aeo Mara nerfed recently so stop whinning.

Gurf wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:17 pm I think the only main difference between RP and Zealot survivability is that RP gets a racial armour tactic, pretty much all core skills, heals and tactics are exactly the same, potentially Zelaot can have more with Wind of Insanity and speed of morale. If I had a choice between armour or morale tactic I would take morale.

I think the survivability between AM and Shammy is by far the biggest difference, to the extent that AM is often the first to be targeted while Shammy one of the last

Halved CC?

So the main reason in your opinion why Shaman is tankier than AM is because of the toughness buff?