Return of Reckoning

This is a proposal to fix the imbalance but to better identify the problem, let me first explain the balance of the original design on live servers and RoR's early years, compared to the current design and the imbalance.

ORIGINAL DESIGN AND BALANCE;
There used to be 1 Good CD increaser(SL) and 1 Bad CD decreaser on Order(WW), and the exact opposite on destro side; 1 Good CD decreaser(CF!) and 1 Bad CD increaser(BG).

The Good Ones: Shatter Limbs --- Chop Fasta!
They were both very convenient and easy to reach abilities, every Slayer and Choppa could take them without ruining their builds, both single target and aoe. So they ended up countering each other just fine.



The Bad Ones: Whispering Wind --- Bad Gas!
These 2 were neither convenient nor easy to take. If you wanted Bad Gas, you had to either go melee squig(Used to be really bad, hence the inconvenience) or get into melee with your ranged build. Whispering Wind however required 13th point on a mastery that you wouldnt normally invest into. Also the buff itself would fail if you were parried/blocked, and it gave free immunity because you had to use it whenever needed not caring about the silence.




CURRENT DESIGN AND THE IMBALANCE;
1 Good CD increaser(SL) and 1 Bad CD decreaser(WW) on Order(nothing changed on this part), and 2 Good CD decreaser(CF!-Waaagh) and 1 also Good CD increaser(new BG) on Destro.


The Good Ones: Shatter Limbs --- Chop Fasta!
Very little has changed about these 2 abilities compared to the original design, they are both still very good and counter each other just fine.



The Bad and the Good One: Whispering Wind --- Indigestion(called Bad Gas! originally)
Whispering Wind hasnt changed so far, still retaining its bad qualities listed above. Indigestion however is currently as good as Shatter limbs due to the Melee Squig getting a rework and becoming so viable.



The Extra Good One: WAAAAAAAGH!
This ability was added without adding the necessary counterpart on Order side, creating a big imbalance.




THE PROPOSAL;

1- Make Whispering Wind undefendable so the buff never fails and keeps a reliable uptime of %50 like its counterparts.

2- Counter the Waaagh! by adding either a second CD increaser or a decreaser on Order side. This change is very flexible, could be done in a lot of ways. My proposal would be to give a CD decreaser to a class that lacks overall utility like White lion or Witch Hunter. Archmage is also a good candidate for this. Not because they lack the utility, but because they are currently the worst healers and need some love. But again, this is very flexible so let me know if you guys have some ideas on how to counter Waaaagh!.

Destro as a whole is already very underbalanced, I think you can give us waaaaghh.

The fact destro has access to x2 cooldown reducers from Black Ork and Choppa ( which are super easy to use with one click whereas the swordmaster has to hit someone in meele and if defended its not applying) and the fact order has ONLY one from swordmaster ( Black Ork WAAAGH CD increaser addon later on) for cooldown reducer is a big question mark. This means destro warbands composition wise way much easier to synergise and get best without comprimising much in terms of warband compositions. This also Renders archmages WAY MUCH useless. Imagine shamans having 1 black or and 1 choppa in a group spamming aoe lifetaps almost all the time whereas poor archmages can get once in a bluemoon whispering winds.

I agree with leakypants has fair points.

They could give it Rune Priest instead of Grimnir's Fury in (13 points into Path of Grimnir) seeing as that is one of the most useless abilities in the history of ROR. Although that would make Rune Priests must have, but it is a place it could go, especially considering Zealot have the broken OP Windblock.

Gurf wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:47 am They could give it Rune Priest instead of Grimnir's Fury in (13 points into Path of Grimnir) seeing as that is one of the most useless abilities in the history of ROR. Although that would make Rune Priests must have, but it is a place it could go, especially considering Zealot have the broken OP Windblock.

It seems to me in this case it will shift the balance towards order, since the RP can fire his most long powerful healing abilities without any group coordination. I agree with OP, we have Lions, which hardly have anything resembling utilities. Alternatively, you could pull down the "Baited Trap" to 3 points and raise the "Stalker" to 11th place and add a CD increaser to the existing effect. By the way, the order has another goofy skill 13 point "Oathstone" in a IB stone tree. (scratching his beard and turning his eyes to the sky) But in the light of the latest improvements for IB, I don't even dare to dream of such generosity.
And yes, I agree "Grimnir's Fury" absolutely not working skill, for it to work, he needs to either double the radius of action, or reduce the casting time to the sane 3 seconds.

Upd Sorry for the confusion. meant that the Stalker should add an effect to the Echoing Roar. and increase the cooldown to 20 seconds. more or less like this.

Adjusting WW somehow to make it more useful seem like a given. Making it usable without target to just decrease cds would be my prefered solution. Giving the option to go for an opportune silence, while reducing cd, with small risk of getting parried or just go directly for a guaranteed cd decreaser.

If balance between realms should be discussed in this narrow sense (imo it shouldn't) then it is worth mentioning that waaagh requires two mastery points and a tacic slot to function as cd decreaser. With a WW fix, the problem according to the OP is the lack of "counter the waaagh" and given that, any such ability should require an equal commitment (most importantly a tactic slot).

I think WW is fine, perfectly adequate ability and a great tool in the arsenal of SM, especially S&B Vaul/Hoeth builds.

It being single target with silence component instead of WoH-like AoE ability is imho fine as far as balance goes cause it gets outweighted by the fairly large commitment (lots of points and a tactic slot) on BO.

I think it's mostly the fact that Destro has one more of these abilities that Order lacks. It's imho pretty weird that 2 of the 3 melee dps classes on destro have cooldown decreaser, can't really imagine why would you throw that on 2 classes, it looks more like something just choppas/slayers should have.

Nekkma wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:48 am
If balance between realms should be discussed in this narrow sense (imo it shouldn't) then it is worth mentioning that waaagh requires two mastery points and a tacic slot to function as cd decreaser. With a WW fix, the problem according to the OP is the lack of "counter the waaagh" and given that, any such ability should require an equal commitment (most importantly a tactic slot).

Yeah, I didnt explain the abilities themselves assuming ppl knew how they worked. But yes it is worth mentioning it needs a 13th point mastery investment and requires a tactic slot.

However I still think BO's access to that is very strong. You would want BOs in your warband to begin with, you can easily put 1 Waaagh BO in each party without gimping your setup

cimator wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:55 pm

The Good Ones: Shatter Limbs --- Chop Fasta!
They were both very convenient and easy to reach abilities, every Slayer and Choppa could take them without ruining their builds, both single target and aoe. So they ended up countering each other just fine.

Yes the Chop Fasta is GooD OnE but Shatter limbs is 4x Extra Good One why because it work on ALL ENEMY IN RANGE 30 FEET when CHOP work only in party ???????? and i think they not ending countering each other because 1 slayer can debuff all in destro warband so to counter that you need 4 choppas

WARChosen wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:52 am

cimator wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:55 pm

The Good Ones: Shatter Limbs --- Chop Fasta!
They were both very convenient and easy to reach abilities, every Slayer and Choppa could take them without ruining their builds, both single target and aoe. So they ended up countering each other just fine.

Yes the Chop Fasta is GooD OnE but Shatter limbs is 4x Extra Good One why because it work on ALL ENEMY IN RANGE 30 FEET when CHOP work only in party ???????? and i think they not ending countering each other because 1 slayer can debuff all in destro warband so to counter that you need 4 choppas

I dont think hitting all warband is realistic tho, you would get maybe 8-12 hits ideallly. And there is also a chance they will defend it. Imo it does feel balanced