Return of Reckoning

So i've been playing the game since early 2020, on and off (had a few months break in summer).

Devs put a cap on Morale dmg, i believe at 2100 for full dmg, after that you mitigate about 50% of all morale dmg after that.
Which i think was a good idea, because things i heard about Destru being able to wait for morale, go in, everyone pop their aoe morale and boom every Order dies.
That sounds pretty OP.

And playing Forts back in early 2020 vs now, its pretty clear that Destru is being roflstomped. And both sides have received nerfs/buffs. The fort also have more defenders and less attackers now.
I also agree 100%, the winrate back in early 2020, was not ideal whatsoever. Im not asking to go back to that, im asking for equal chances to win.
The strategy i see Order pulling off is wait for Destru to push zone, then join Fort. Because you see Destru pushing a zone like 180vs80 and then all off a sudden even if other zones are 1 or 3 ppl, the fort has 154 order defenders.
And Destru are pretty much giving up even putting any effort into the forts. Like just go in, grab ur 2 invader and leave.
While this strategy is completly fine, it's not ideal when the winrate is heavily leaning in ones favor for forts. If we had equal chance to win and Order wants to gamble on forts, thats fine.
But baiting forts because of the easier chance to win is not okey and is breaking the game.

And i think, the reasoning behind this is the aoe pressure. People wanna complain about destru being not organised, we bring sub 40s in there, not enough healers, all these silly execuses.
Because Order is not more organised than destru, i was just on my order char, seeing advice filled with ppl complaining about not finding groups, roam wbs, orvr wbs, etc.
I believe we're both just as organised. And order also gets their sub 40s or lack of certain role in their forts.

Even as a tank in a 2/2/2 wb, tanks in invader and sov takes insanes amount of dmg and on a single push thru postern or main, melts.
And i believe that aoe dmg needs an equal cap as Morale does, or something similar.
Because i think Destru aswell probably has good aoe pressure, or perhaps to strong when we go wbVSwb in orvr or in cities.
In cities and orvr order, doesn't have that same funnel, so aoe is still strong, but theres not 10 bws or engineers bombing a narrow door.


But when it comes to forts the aoe pressure just skyrockets and no1 is able to even make a slight dent in the push.

What i want this suggestion to be, is not a "QQ Destru not win forts" post. But more of a "aoe in general needs a cap."
Im using the forts and cities as an example.
Because i know Destru in roaming wbs also spam their aoes.
And i think this game could use a healthy dose of aoe control.


So it would be nice if people mentioned both sides here, where aoe is seemed to strong and perhaps push this to devs to control the dmg a bit.
Because it has to be clear to anyone, that these winrates are not good for the game. Even if you order pride or destru pride, this is not good at all.
You can jump in joy winning forts, finnishing ur invader gear, but let this be here long enough and there won't be any forts to push because 1 side will quit.
And this can happen either way.
it's super easy to jsut reroll, since u can xrealm, so the moment 1 faction gets stomped to hard, they'll just quit the faction or the game entirely.

Anyway this is just my take on this. I know some ppl agree and there'll be ppl disagreeing. But please voice your reason as to why.

Long time ago the AOE cap was 9 targets => cap was changed from 9 to 24 targets => thats a dmg increse of x3 if you can reach the targets cap...

The cap change (from 9 => 24) made the moral drops really OP => moral drops got nerfed but normal aoe dmg still the same...

I've been playing again since February and Destro did not automatically win all forts just because they morale bombed. There were many a fort that I witnessed where it would get prided. Morale bomb works both ways but it definitely helps with all these vigilance s/s knights that can block the door with little fear of death.

lyncher12 wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 3:44 pm I've been playing again since February and Destro did not automatically win all forts just because they morale bombed. There were many a fort that I witnessed where it would get prided. Morale bomb works both ways but it definitely helps with all these vigilance s/s knights that can block the door with little fear of death.

Ye if it made it sound like i said "morale bomb = guaranteed win" then i apologise, it's not what i meant.
But it gave Destru a very big aoe advantage. What i would like to see is what Emiliorv said above, the fact that morale got a target affected cap but aoe in general didn't.
I think if they start balancing aoe dmg and how big effect it has, we might get to a more balanced state.
Exactly how we go about doing this balance can be discussed and i hope people are up for it.
We all want the game to flourish and be active, non want 1 faction to have left, because that means dead game and no more RoR.

Some suggestions are target cap on AoE, lower dmg, X base dmg taken then rest is mitigated as with morale dmg.

Freemind wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:04 pm

lyncher12 wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 3:44 pm I've been playing again since February and Destro did not automatically win all forts just because they morale bombed. There were many a fort that I witnessed where it would get prided. Morale bomb works both ways but it definitely helps with all these vigilance s/s knights that can block the door with little fear of death.

Ye if it made it sound like i said "morale bomb = guaranteed win" then i apologise, it's not what i meant.
But it gave Destru a very big aoe advantage. What i would like to see is what Emiliorv said above, the fact that morale got a target affected cap but aoe in general didn't.
I think if they start balancing aoe dmg and how big effect it has, we might get to a more balanced state.
Exactly how we go about doing this balance can be discussed and i hope people are up for it.
We all want the game to flourish and be active, non want 1 faction to have left, because that means dead game and no more RoR.

Some suggestions are target cap on AoE, lower dmg, X base dmg taken then rest is mitigated as with morale dmg.

I do agree with you that something should change. If not with aoe abilities then with skaven poison or unnerfing morales.

Destro has issues in forts due to their lack of rdps and the over abundance of rpds in order. The ranged dps pressure combined with poison makes it pretty hard for destro to push a poison fort. That combined with mainly pug wbs who are not rotating IDs between tanks when they push means instant death every time. And the recent change to how many attackers can be in a fort only made this problem worse.

If you really look at it destro only has one fort that gives them trouble and that is reikwald. I would take a look at how poison forts effect the game and balance from there. The 24 aoe cap is fine, and not the culprit imo. You will just have people clump together again, which has been meta sense live lol. Then moral dmg would have to be uncapped to break through the clump which leads to wounds beIng the only reliable defense you have to counter it again.

I wouldn't think an AoE cap would be a good idea if I played BW either lol! I don't play rdps, I play only tanks so this is not from the perspective of a ranged player or main. I will say though that tanks in general need more disrupt, especially 2h tanks, but that is a different matter... **** everyone needs more disrupt or some resistance. Anyways...

Even if they lower the AoE to 9 people a group of 3-5 engineers can 100-0 a full sov tank with HtL up relatively easy. But that is just an effect of order having more rdps players, there is not really much that can be done about that. Order will almost always have more ranged than destro in any scene (In some cases this is advantageous, and others not so much). Imo disrupt/dodge, making toughness better, less total aoe targets for abilities like the OP suggested will help but then we hurt these rdps classes in other scenes even more. Fort and keep walls is like the best place for an average rdps to shine and excel.

Nerfing aoe will encourage Zerging, the proper organised guilds need a way to fight against much higher numbers which is why aoe is needed.

Thanks for replies guys, good to have a discussion about this.

If you really look at it destro only has one fort that gives them trouble and that is reikwald.

I don't agree with this at all. The only way Destru wins fort is by outnumbering them, by pushing 2 forts and winning the latter.
My last won destru fort 192vs154 was a few days ago and i've been online pretty much 12+hrs a day.
The destru morale is so low that even losing 1 push now ppl give up. Thats not something that happens from only losing Reikwald, it was like that back in early 2020 when we were winning majority of forts aswell.
We still lost Reikwald back then.

On my chosen i can't even gear through Forts anymore to get Invader, i have to rely on zone bags.
I spent 20 invader to unlock my last vanq piece and i've almost gained back those 20 from zones and getting about 2-4 per day from Fort losses.

I wouldn't think an AoE cap would be a good idea if I played BW either lol!

This would be for all aoe ranged. But mainly BW and Engi ye. But thing is you gotta look past the bias.
Im tank to, ye i don't wanna see tank nerfs. But if Chosen would be OP and require a nerf, then nerf it.


Ranged is far to superior in Forts and even keeps. And you can't just be like "oh well guess ranged is just stronk, can't do anything lel."
Fort gives a royal to if u win iirc and it's the last set before Sovereign. It's part of endgame gear. That part HAS to be balanced.
If you're giving just one side the superiority there and just fall over and not change it. You'll see an order increase and Destru decrease.

Gurf wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:43 pm Nerfing aoe will encourage Zerging, the proper organised guilds need a way to fight against much higher numbers which is why aoe is needed.

Editing.

I understand aoe is required. But i don't think lowering aoe target amounts would somehow make zerging the new meta.
Do you have to have an aoe hit absolutely everyone in a warband, in order for aoe to counter a zerg?

Also they have fort exceptions that keep doesn't have, like how you can/cant cc someone outside the keep when inside.
Could same thing be added here but perhaps with aoe target numbers.