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crnogorac09
Posts: 1

Re: SH proposal

Post#61 » Sun Nov 29, 2020 6:05 pm

Thought you buft the range and now the range is shortened ... in my opinion this is a meele buff and not a long range buff .... adjusts the range. where battles were won one equal range

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Oglaf
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Posts: 279

Re: SH proposal

Post#62 » Sun Nov 29, 2020 6:08 pm

Honestly. What harm would there be in bringing the range-increasing tactic back and, y'know, see if it breaks the class? Or if it just makes it, y'know, playable? An experiment.

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Brutinho
Posts: 145

Re: SH proposal

Post#63 » Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:51 pm

Spoiler:
Jurki wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 10:00 am
Update: After testing myself and watching some twitch stuff trying to handle the SH (which didnt work even tho i usually enjoy to see people try to play sh): most of the changes the developers made are, and now attention pls folks, not compatible with the following. To keep the changes now with increasing range to 100ft would be too much. They would make the SH too powerful and i understand that. So there needs to be additional adjustments, listen up:

-increase the base range of quick shooting abilities to 98ft-100ft (was already my proposal - and is crucial for the overall performance of the class - as you might already know now)

-change SWDW: give it a SLIGHT armor pen. increase (so armored targets are better dealt with) --> that way it also opens up the opportunity to use other tactics as well (like pierce defence in combination with run away, or grp supporting tactics), it widens the spectrum of viable tactic opportunities. Maybe the crit increase for QS abilties as it is right now would work too. Suggestions anyone?

-revert the range knockdown ability: was an ambitious change but pls no range knockdown (we already have a good toolkit besides that), but the old ini debuff of the QS path allowing casting while running (movement is the class key - a range of 100ft is mandatory - 100ft is by the way not long range - melees and rdps already have toolkits to close the gaps or to fight on that range (regarding rpds) effectively with a much greater dmg output than the SH). A 100ft range, i can only repeat, is a necessary range to give the player the chance to react on his surroundings - that was the primary defensive tool the class had since its natural vulnerability.

-keep the squig frenzy cd on 1 min (that way its better integrated into the fights - giving a temporary dmg boost)

-I am undecided regarding the squig depending temporary effects of Squig Frenzy as it is right now

-keep the new tastes like chicken effect

-change finish em off back to the big shooting path to also support the viability of that stationary path

-squig beast back to m3 (that way we have a slight dmg burst potential - combined with armor pen. of SWDW (in my idea) and the squig frenzy its quite decent without melting enemies in under 2 secs (terrain is also a big problem causing the squig to not function well) and supports the integrating of rSH into 6 man grps --> it gives the opportunity to have m1 (concealment) and m3 (squig beast) and to decide in the context of the situation if a defensive or aggressive approach is more fitting --> improves survivability of an otherwise fragile class (as it should be).

-change Shoot thru Ya back to base ability: for the guys who wanted a more viable opportunity to make AE with the QS SH I have to make this statement: This path is not meant for your average WB AE gameplay. If you want to support your warband as a QS rSH then talk to your team and support the melees (like WE death squads for example) to get into the backline and kill the healers. Also you still can do decent dmg when using Expert Skirmisher and Explosive Shots (M3). You wouldnt do that much dmg as a choppa, mSH or Sorcs for example, but you can still contribute. One path shouldnt do anything at a good level (thats something i can agree on).

-Red Dot arrer: interesting design, I dont quite know if this ability should stay as it is, good thing is that its an additional instant supporting dmg output that could be the difference in the fight but it could be too strong in combination with the stuff i proposed. the interrupting effect is nice too but maybe too strong in the fight - the melee variant might be the smarter approach after all because that includes a risky approach to for example push up to the healer and interrupt a res or heal while exposing one self to other dps to react on that.

-the reduced aoe dmg on the pets is already a good step supporting more survivability for for example the spiked squig which still has less range than the gas squig. the reduced range, introduced with an update some time ago now already caused problems with kiting since essential abilities like Drop That! didnt work on ranges it would disarm before. Increasing the range of Spiked Squig would support a fluid and mobile playstile - which includes a decent range of the player as well (not 65 feet but 100ft) as a mandatory requirement to actually work.

I want to underline: The rSH didnt need hard and ever changing adjustments (tho he might after this patch). Only a few tweaks as I, atleast I hope so, could show with that post.
Range KD: I agree with Jurki 100%. It should be kept as it's old version. Shrapnel Arrer back on BS.

Finish em' off: I have to admit that I wanted to give QS damage so skills and BS support skills, but I was wrong. This causes it to be even less disireble as the damage output for been stationary is not worth it. Bringing back FEO to BS would at least make people want to spec 13p on it.

What blocka?: Moving it to QS and give it on the move cast could be an option, or keeping it in BS with insta cast. In instaces damage should be reduced to match Run n' Shoot or Shrapnel Arrer

Explosive Arrer: Jurki what is you take on sending it to QS and making it a ST punt instead of AoE?

SWDW: Could be kept as is, but add negative effect to decrease QS to 65ft (If QS get a larger range baseline ofc / I would advocate the same for SW and their AoE tactic).

Squig Beast: Maybe move to M2 and not all the way to M3.

STY: Gonna get some hate for this one, but I like it as an M3. AoE should strickly stay at path of bouncin' and seen as the other option would have been to remove it. I feel they did a great job to keep it as a legacy skill (sort of).

Red Dot Arrer: Mixed feelings. I liked it on melee path, but I think it truely has potential on QS and I would (hypothetical) love it if QS baseline was 100ft. Would be a nice tool to use as a caster harrasser.
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Jurki
Posts: 31

Re: SH proposal

Post#64 » Mon Nov 30, 2020 4:41 pm

Brutinho wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:51 pm
Spoiler:
Jurki wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 10:00 am
Update: After testing myself and watching some twitch stuff trying to handle the SH (which didnt work even tho i usually enjoy to see people try to play sh): most of the changes the developers made are, and now attention pls folks, not compatible with the following. To keep the changes now with increasing range to 100ft would be too much. They would make the SH too powerful and i understand that. So there needs to be additional adjustments, listen up:

-increase the base range of quick shooting abilities to 98ft-100ft (was already my proposal - and is crucial for the overall performance of the class - as you might already know now)

-change SWDW: give it a SLIGHT armor pen. increase (so armored targets are better dealt with) --> that way it also opens up the opportunity to use other tactics as well (like pierce defence in combination with run away, or grp supporting tactics), it widens the spectrum of viable tactic opportunities. Maybe the crit increase for QS abilties as it is right now would work too. Suggestions anyone?

-revert the range knockdown ability: was an ambitious change but pls no range knockdown (we already have a good toolkit besides that), but the old ini debuff of the QS path allowing casting while running (movement is the class key - a range of 100ft is mandatory - 100ft is by the way not long range - melees and rdps already have toolkits to close the gaps or to fight on that range (regarding rpds) effectively with a much greater dmg output than the SH). A 100ft range, i can only repeat, is a necessary range to give the player the chance to react on his surroundings - that was the primary defensive tool the class had since its natural vulnerability.

-keep the squig frenzy cd on 1 min (that way its better integrated into the fights - giving a temporary dmg boost)

-I am undecided regarding the squig depending temporary effects of Squig Frenzy as it is right now

-keep the new tastes like chicken effect

-change finish em off back to the big shooting path to also support the viability of that stationary path

-squig beast back to m3 (that way we have a slight dmg burst potential - combined with armor pen. of SWDW (in my idea) and the squig frenzy its quite decent without melting enemies in under 2 secs (terrain is also a big problem causing the squig to not function well) and supports the integrating of rSH into 6 man grps --> it gives the opportunity to have m1 (concealment) and m3 (squig beast) and to decide in the context of the situation if a defensive or aggressive approach is more fitting --> improves survivability of an otherwise fragile class (as it should be).

-change Shoot thru Ya back to base ability: for the guys who wanted a more viable opportunity to make AE with the QS SH I have to make this statement: This path is not meant for your average WB AE gameplay. If you want to support your warband as a QS rSH then talk to your team and support the melees (like WE death squads for example) to get into the backline and kill the healers. Also you still can do decent dmg when using Expert Skirmisher and Explosive Shots (M3). You wouldnt do that much dmg as a choppa, mSH or Sorcs for example, but you can still contribute. One path shouldnt do anything at a good level (thats something i can agree on).

-Red Dot arrer: interesting design, I dont quite know if this ability should stay as it is, good thing is that its an additional instant supporting dmg output that could be the difference in the fight but it could be too strong in combination with the stuff i proposed. the interrupting effect is nice too but maybe too strong in the fight - the melee variant might be the smarter approach after all because that includes a risky approach to for example push up to the healer and interrupt a res or heal while exposing one self to other dps to react on that.

-the reduced aoe dmg on the pets is already a good step supporting more survivability for for example the spiked squig which still has less range than the gas squig. the reduced range, introduced with an update some time ago now already caused problems with kiting since essential abilities like Drop That! didnt work on ranges it would disarm before. Increasing the range of Spiked Squig would support a fluid and mobile playstile - which includes a decent range of the player as well (not 65 feet but 100ft) as a mandatory requirement to actually work.

I want to underline: The rSH didnt need hard and ever changing adjustments (tho he might after this patch). Only a few tweaks as I, atleast I hope so, could show with that post.
Range KD: I agree with Jurki 100%. It should be kept as it's old version. Shrapnel Arrer back on BS.

Finish em' off: I have to admit that I wanted to give QS damage so skills and BS support skills, but I was wrong. This causes it to be even less disireble as the damage output for been stationary is not worth it. Bringing back FEO to BS would at least make people want to spec 13p on it.

What blocka?: Moving it to QS and give it on the move cast could be an option, or keeping it in BS with insta cast. In instaces damage should be reduced to match Run n' Shoot or Shrapnel Arrer

Explosive Arrer: Jurki what is you take on sending it to QS and making it a ST punt instead of AoE?

SWDW: Could be kept as is, but add negative effect to decrease QS to 65ft (If QS get a larger range baseline ofc / I would advocate the same for SW and their AoE tactic).

Squig Beast: Maybe move to M2 and not all the way to M3.

STY: Gonna get some hate for this one, but I like it as an M3. AoE should strickly stay at path of bouncin' and seen as the other option would have been to remove it. I feel they did a great job to keep it as a legacy skill (sort of).

Red Dot Arrer: Mixed feelings. I liked it on melee path, but I think it truely has potential on QS and I would (hypothetical) love it if QS baseline was 100ft. Would be a nice tool to use as a caster harrasser.
-agree on Finish em Off

-Explosive arrer: Hm, thats a good question. I think your idea of a single target punt would be nice (in combination with a higher range on QS up to 80 ft as Leaky proposed (tho I still advise 100ft) might be nice too. But then it should be a core ability imo.

-Squigbeast: I think its still best advised to change it back to m3. If thats not possible its still viable to remain as M1 since M2 is essential with Focused Mind which you need if perma snared etc. That morale is still more important than concealment which is not affecting some strong abilities like snipe + tactic.

-STY: Yes, a dev already confirmed that they will keep it as M3 for the time.

-Red Dot Arrer: I like the idea of having an interrupting range skill too. Tho if they let SWDW as it is right now, the additional crit dmg of 50% is quite strong, too strong for my taste - atleast if they increase the range again. Its playing a part of the significant dmg increase of the SH with the Changes, something the SH didnt need imo. So atleast a decrease of the crit dmg might be advised (only if they increase range again - they should do that and i'd like that as much as repeating myself), tho an additional instant cast is still helpful for the overall performance. BUT: What SH needs more right now is not direct dmg boosts but again: more range. So I, as you might expect, disagree on the Idea to limit range when slotting SWDW. It would bring the SH back in a position from where the need for some SLIGHT adjustments were felt to be needed - even more than back in the day i guess.

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adapter
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Posts: 420

Re: SH proposal

Post#65 » Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:56 pm

It feels so bad not having Finish 'em off on BS at 100'. The rotation got messed up so hard, kinda not worth playing neither BS or QS, both paths got nerfed too much.
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Cptkud
Posts: 18

Re: SH proposal

Post#66 » Mon Nov 30, 2020 7:46 pm

Jurki wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 10:00 am
-revert the range knockdown ability: was an ambitious change but pls no range knockdown (we already have a good toolkit besides that), but the old ini debuff of the QS path allowing casting while running (movement is the class key - a range of 100ft is mandatory - 100ft is by the way not long range - melees and rdps already have toolkits to close the gaps or to fight on that range (regarding rpds) effectively with a much greater dmg output than the SH). A 100ft range, i can only repeat, is a necessary range to give the player the chance to react on his surroundings - that was the primary defensive tool the class had since its natural vulnerability.
I actually like the knock down taken away from the horned squig. I think It works great attached to Not so Fast. If I'm using abilities in that tree I have to be stationary, and the cast times are fairly long in a fight. I need the time. I say keep it on there but get rid of the knock back on Explodin' Arrer. I don't see the point in having 2 knock backs. If I want to use one I can use point-blank.

Edit: If they insist on keeping the knock back on Explodin' Arrer, at least switch it with Finish em off in the trees. It makes more sense for a kiting squig to want a knock back for 13pts in QS. I'd never use it, I much prefer to put 13pts into BS for Finish em off.

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wiscel
Posts: 457

Re: SH proposal

Post#67 » Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:42 am

So, I've been trying the new changes. It took a while to adjust. I only play ranged squiggy, so can't say anything about the melee changes.

- I'm very glad with the ranged kd, the old version on squig I never got that working properly.
- Please please please bring back the tactic for the extra range in quick shooting. I hardly can use these abilities cause always out of range.
- And please make Stop Runnin1 instant cast again. It's already has short range and 1 sec to trigger, doing this and the enemy is already standing next to you.
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Hardkoar
Suspended
Posts: 242

Re: SH proposal

Post#68 » Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:47 am

Oglaf wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 6:08 pm
Honestly. What harm would there be in bringing the range-increasing tactic back and, y'know, see if it breaks the class? Or if it just makes it, y'know, playable? An experiment.
The class is already broken on the melee spec, on your words : Maybe the devs ''y'know, don't feel like it would be justified breaking it even further'' .

People need to decide, either you have range and mobility or you have damage and risk/squishy. You can't and should never have both.

Either you have ST burst or you have AOE pealing. You can't and should never have both.

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Sera
Posts: 84

Re: SH proposal

Post#69 » Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:19 pm

cimator wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:35 pm
Agreed, tho I think What Blocka? is fine as it is, current damage of the rSH is a lot better now, armor debuff on the move would be too overkill imo.
But range should be definitely increased, 65ft is basically pounce range, kiting feels horrible atm.
It should be either 100ft base, or if the devs want to keep quick shootin lower range than big shootin' for lore/roleplay reasons, it should be 80ft or 85ft.
Why should you auto-win against all melee? Only 2 classes got Pounce and only one can spam it for a cost of not using a pet.
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cimator
Posts: 124

Re: SH proposal

Post#70 » Wed Dec 02, 2020 3:12 pm

Sera wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:19 pm
cimator wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:35 pm
Agreed, tho I think What Blocka? is fine as it is, current damage of the rSH is a lot better now, armor debuff on the move would be too overkill imo.
But range should be definitely increased, 65ft is basically pounce range, kiting feels horrible atm.
It should be either 100ft base, or if the devs want to keep quick shootin lower range than big shootin' for lore/roleplay reasons, it should be 80ft or 85ft.
Why should you auto-win against all melee? Only 2 classes got Pounce and only one can spam it for a cost of not using a pet.
So if the range is more than 65ft you would consider that auto-win against all melee? Then what would you say for every other ranged class in the game?
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