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Kenshiken
Posts: 89

Re: Regarding Global Cooldowns

Post#101 » Thu May 26, 2022 3:06 pm

Haojin wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:46 pm
Omegus wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:23 pm
I was under the impression that the purpose of the focus groups was that they were run by the CM team to help gather feedback for the Devs. When did that change to the groups making announcements about upcoming changes and "getting things done"?

Edit: to clarify, I'm quoting gravord but the questions are for Gamesbond
I think some of your questions are answered by Secrets in a "panic-deleted" thread ;D
Do we know who else is in this "focus groups" and how they got in them?
or we live in a Gravord world now?

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Kaelang
Posts: 1275

Re: Regarding Global Cooldowns

Post#102 » Thu May 26, 2022 3:25 pm

I can see where this thread is going, so I'm clearing up the last page of questions.
nat3s wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 12:57 pm
Gravord wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 10:50 pm Hello. Just to step in and calm situation a bit. Balance focus group is painfully aware of the issue with ap and its working with dev team to push another tweak to ap already in this week patch. Stay tuned for more info.
Are you part of the RoR team now? Suggests Zarbix was right which is concerning. You have so much passion Grav, but not sure your ideas are popular... And the game needs popular ideas. All of this "we're removing/nerfing x for the integrity of the server" nonsense has to go, design for fun and keeping people playing. Not aggravating people in some hope of creating some pure form of competitive play.

Design arouund "Concentrated Coolness" - a term Greg Street coined when he was lead designer for WoW.
Gravord is part of the focus groups - not part of the RoR Team. The Focus groups are feedback for us - they don't steer direction. Focus Groups do not steer development and the members do not represent the team so any time they propose changes or seek feedback, they do them as individuals.
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Gatto
Posts: 78

Re: Regarding Global Cooldowns

Post#103 » Thu May 26, 2022 5:08 pm

Spellbound wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 3:36 pm
Omegus wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:23 pm
Gravord wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 1:08 pmPart of the RoR staff? No. Part of focus group that will be getting things done in near future.
I would argue RoR need lot less "popular" populist slogans aimed for gaining attention and power play and more actual good work done in the back ground.
I was under the impression that the purpose of the focus groups was that they were run by the CM team to help gather feedback for the Devs. When did that change to the groups making announcements about upcoming changes and "getting things done"?
Yes, Focus Groups report to CMs, which in turn report to the Devs who make the decisions overall to make it easier going through feedback.
so he's just roleplaying.
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GamesBond
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Re: Regarding Global Cooldowns

Post#104 » Thu May 26, 2022 6:12 pm

Gatto wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 5:08 pm so he's just roleplaying.
I thought of quoting you first because I had to group up the answers, so I kept your reply since I had to merge posts.
Omegus wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:23 pm I was under the impression that the purpose of the focus groups was that they were run by the CM team to help gather feedback for the Devs. When did that change to the groups making announcements about upcoming changes and "getting things done"?

Edit: to clarify, I'm quoting gravord but the questions are for Gamesbond

The CM team oversees all focus groups, and we've created an effective and reliable stream of feedback for the developers. Over the months, we've looked into ways to make it a smoother process that saves time and delivers feedback to the Developers. One of these solutions was adding the Developers to the focus groups, originally each developer where he'd work on the most. This has created a managed space where occasionally we'd submit a topic, prepare the channels, the time to discuss it and then start receiving feedback from the focus group. The developers there will also engage with feedback on the spot when it makes the process faster. To sum up:

- The CM team oversees all focus groups (4 of them, each their own field) and ensure that communication there is seamless and accurate. Basically we make sure everybody is doing their job, the ones who should listen are listening and the ones who should share their opinions are doing so objectively.

- The Balance Focus Group is spearheaded by the developers. While proposals, feedback and follow ups is done by the members of the focus group (just like any other focus group), the final decision will always reside in the developers hands.

- The best part is that everything that's being discussed between the members and the developers is checked by the Community Managers and thus when issues like the AP change popped, we precisely knew who to hold accountable and talk to. This helps the community on the long run.

nat3s wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 12:57 pm Are you part of the RoR team now? Suggests Zarbix was right which is concerning. You have so much passion Grav, but not sure your ideas are popular... And the game needs popular ideas. All of this "we're removing/nerfing x for the integrity of the server" nonsense has to go, design for fun and keeping people playing. Not aggravating people in some hope of creating some pure form of competitive play.

Design arouund "Concentrated Coolness" - a term Greg Street coined when he was lead designer for WoW.

Being part of the focus group isn't something major or uniquely exclusive to someone. It's a group and by its name, team work and group decisions is the only way to come up with proper proposals and well-funneled feedback. There are in total around 30 members in the focus groups, we do not announce their names because it doesn't matter as they're there to provide feedback and actually work on proposals. If they do not do the minimum, they will be replaced. Focus Group aren't laid back places, everyone who's part of them occasionally has something to do.

Haojin wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:46 pm I think some of your questions are answered by Secrets in a "panic-deleted" thread ;D

The thread was definitely not deleted in panic, you personally know how quickly similar posts are usually locked and the author suspended. We did not see the need to do so as a lot of details were incorrect and we wanted to reserve the time for everybody to express their discontent while we listen. You could also spot many posts that usually would trigger a warning, but we barely warned 2 posters for really being disrespectful.

The thread was later on archived because it started a disrespectful feud between players, one that also had a lot of speculations and false assumptions from both sides.

Kenshiken wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 3:06 pm Do we know who else is in this "focus groups" and how they got in them?
or we live in a Gravord world now?

Just like different programs, such as Realm Champions, we do not forcefully expose the members. We surely do not hold them back from saying that they're currently and temporarily part of a focus group, whichever it was. At the end of the day, we judge their objective feedback and thoughtful proposals. We also judge how their input impacted the community.

Since you mentioned the player's name and that he has publicly written about it, I'll let you know that Gravord is one of over 30 members inside the focus groups. There are RvR leaders, PvE addicts, QoL creatives and others. If you're speculating that the balance focus group members will not do well, I think that's too early. But, we will all get the chance to review their work and only then our feedback would be accurate.

----------------------------------

To sum up:

- Sharing feedback where there are eyes watching is much better than sharing feedback in direct messages. Sharing feedback on the forums is a broader way to get feedback, while in parallel there is a narrowed way via focus groups. The groups are players, who want the game to succeed and are simply providing feedback and proposals to the developers.

- If you'd like to apply and join the focus groups, reach out to a community manager and they will guide you from there. A proven way of writing proposals and writing constructive feedback is needed as we expect people to be proactive inside focus groups.

Dabbart
Posts: 2248

Re: Regarding Global Cooldowns

Post#105 » Thu May 26, 2022 6:55 pm

- The best part is that everything that's being discussed between the members and the developers is checked by the Community Managers and thus when issues like the AP change popped, we precisely knew who to hold accountable and talk to. This helps the community on the long run.

The ****? How is that helpful though? There was an issue with a change, the person who made the change is the one you go to. How many people making unlogged changes was there if you needed this system inorder to determine who you go to?!?! And considering yall just rolled back the AP change and created a worse game state, you're holding that as a win for your system? We're still in a terrible game state! Using terms like "held them accountable" is just drivel.

Lastly, something needs to be made clear. Secrets made accusations. Accusations that you have claimed aren't correct, and Dalen has said never happened. So someone is flat out LYING. That's a big deal. Archiving the thread just made it look worse for you guys. There are plenty of screen shots floating through discord.

The accusation is that Gravord would be banned and gone if not for Dalen. If that is true, then why is he on the Team in any respect? If that's false, then wtf is Secrets smoking, and can he be trusted? For the record, I like Secrets. I've never spoken or played with Dalen(to my knowledge).

Somethings rotten. And all the PR in the world isn't covering the smell mate.

Edit: After a smoke and a reread, that came across far harsher than I intended. Not gonna alter it, just saying.
Azarael wrote: It's only a nerf if you're bad.

(see, I can shitpost too!)
Secrets wrote: Kindly adjust your attitude to actually help the community and do not impose your will on it. You aren't as powerful as you think.

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GamesBond
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Re: Regarding Global Cooldowns

Post#106 » Thu May 26, 2022 7:42 pm

Dabbart wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 6:55 pm - The best part is that everything that's being discussed between the members and the developers is checked by the Community Managers and thus when issues like the AP change popped, we precisely knew who to hold accountable and talk to. This helps the community on the long run.

The ****? How is that helpful though? There was an issue with a change, the person who made the change is the one you go to. How many people making unlogged changes was there if you needed this system inorder to determine who you go to?!?! And considering yall just rolled back the AP change and created a worse game state, you're holding that as a win for your system? We're still in a terrible game state! Using terms like "held them accountable" is just drivel.

Let's start with the fact that the development team implements its own vision by default. These are in the expectations and ToS that you've already read. There's no malicious intent, ever, there are just different visions and different opinions. So what's the difference now?: Earlier this year, we've created a procedure that asks developers to get feedback prior to the implementation phase. Not force the developers, but ask them. In that new process, we could identify where the miscommunication happened and coordinate with the different parties accordingly. Surely this doesn't instantly resolve the issue, but it allows us to always have a thread that leads us to the mistake and how we could prevent it in the future. So there's no 'win' here, we all lost somewhere, but the difference is that the CM team this time was present, had enough evidence of the cause of the mistake and reached out to the rightful parties in order to highlight the inconvenience caused and offer a solution.

Dabbart wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 6:55 pm Lastly, something needs to be made clear. Secrets made accusations. Accusations that you have claimed aren't correct, and Dalen has said he never happened. So someone is flat out LYING. That's a big deal. Archiving the thread just made it look worse for you guys. There are plenty of screen shots floating through discord.

The accusation is that Gravord would be banned and gone if not for Dalen. If that is true, then why is he on the Team in any respect? If that's false, then wtf is Secrets smoking, and can he be trusted? For the record, I like Secrets. I've never spoken or played with Dalen(to my knowledge).

Somethings rotten. And all the PR in the world isn't covering the smell mate.

Secrets and I frequently talk and we're on good terms. He did speculate a lot of stuff and shared accusations that would usually terminate his presence on the forum, because they aren't accurate and as you noticed, they've created huge amounts of doubt. I completely understand when you distrust someone's vision, or his methods of communication, but when it comes to the integrity of the team, there's a red line that was sort of scratched. He doesn't have to be purposely lying, but a simple misunderstanding fueled by frustration could quickly create this sort of negative vibes. After all, Secrets has left the team multiple times for various reasons before, and we've welcomed him back with open arms just to see him leave again. That's how I objectively see it. If there's something you really want to "fight", there's absolutely no way you could do it from the outside. I have advised him several times not to leave out of frustration, because everything is negotiable if done respectfully. Nevertheless, I've personally followed up on these accusations some months ago (earlier this year) but there's the minimum respect of confidentiality that I'd like to preserve, so I will not go into details, even though the details are positive and contradict Secret's assumptions or misunderstanding. But if I were you and I was really in doubt of the reality, I'd ask for proof of the accusations. Besides, as a currently active developer, it's not really the smartest move to deny yourself all this progress and most importantly, crumble your own reputation, if a player in an online game, whom you played with, deserved a rightful ban. The project will progress, you would be left out.

The last thing I want to add is that nobody has been previously 'spared' by GMs because they played with a staff member, and nobody will. Only team leaders have intervened previously, on very rare occasions, to review bans that were rightful by ToS standards but a bit unfair when different scenarios are taken into consideration.

Dabbart
Posts: 2248

Re: Regarding Global Cooldowns

Post#107 » Thu May 26, 2022 8:12 pm

GamesBond wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 7:42 pm
Dabbart wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 6:55 pm - The best part is that everything that's being discussed between the members and the developers is checked by the Community Managers and thus when issues like the AP change popped, we precisely knew who to hold accountable and talk to. This helps the community on the long run.

The ****? How is that helpful though? There was an issue with a change, the person who made the change is the one you go to. How many people making unlogged changes was there if you needed this system inorder to determine who you go to?!?! And considering yall just rolled back the AP change and created a worse game state, you're holding that as a win for your system? We're still in a terrible game state! Using terms like "held them accountable" is just drivel.

Let's start with the fact that the development team implements its own vision by default. These are in the expectations and ToS that you've already read. There's no malicious intent, ever, there are just different visions and different opinions. So what's the difference now?: Earlier this year, we've created a procedure that asks developers to get feedback prior to the implementation phase. Not force the developers, but ask them. In that new process, we could identify where the miscommunication happened and coordinate with the different parties accordingly. Surely this doesn't instantly resolve the issue, but it allows us to always have a thread that leads us to the mistake and how we could prevent it in the future. So there's no 'win' here, we all lost somewhere, but the difference is that the CM team this time was present, had enough evidence of the cause of the mistake and reached out to the rightful parties in order to highlight the inconvenience caused and offer a solution.
Wut? What feedback was collected prior to the GcD/AP change? Or are you trying to say you asked someone to do it this way, and was ignored? Cause that's what it sounds like.

I never assumed or alledged malicious intent. Redundancy, and lack of oversight yes.

You're just tossing a word salad at me. The game is STILL in a terrible state. Why? Because multiple changes were input, 1 aspect of which was reverted after it was found to be buggy(IE giving far too much AP). That's it. Whatever communication protocals you have in place to process that is helpful for you guys, not us on the outside looking in. Sorry if that sounds mean. But I've been here long enough to see how this **** flip flops, and people getting burned out from trying to explain/argue their ideas. There's a reason so much goes on behind closed doors nowadays.

Edit: This is just flat out ignoring that the Dev team does whatever it wants. Why even have focus groups or anything else if "the development team implements its own vision by default"? Not gonna lie, that kinda sounds like Secret's wasn't too far off in some of his assertions. Btw, I already knew this. The change to the argument for how Tactics/abilities are supposed to stack seared that into my brain quite efficiently.

GamesBond wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 7:42 pm
Dabbart wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 6:55 pm Lastly, something needs to be made clear. Secrets made accusations. Accusations that you have claimed aren't correct, and Dalen has said he never happened. So someone is flat out LYING. That's a big deal. Archiving the thread just made it look worse for you guys. There are plenty of screen shots floating through discord.

The accusation is that Gravord would be banned and gone if not for Dalen. If that is true, then why is he on the Team in any respect? If that's false, then wtf is Secrets smoking, and can he be trusted? For the record, I like Secrets. I've never spoken or played with Dalen(to my knowledge).

Somethings rotten. And all the PR in the world isn't covering the smell mate.

Secrets and I frequently talk and we're on good terms. He did speculate a lot of stuff and shared accusations that would usually terminate his presence on the forum, because they aren't accurate and as you noticed, they've created huge amounts of doubt. I completely understand when you distrust someone's vision, or his methods of communication, but when it comes to the integrity of the team, there's a red line that was sort of scratched. He doesn't have to be purposely lying, but a simple misunderstanding fueled by frustration could quickly create this sort of negative vibes. After all, Secrets has left the team multiple times for various reasons before, and we've welcomed him back with open arms just to see him leave again. That's how I objectively see it. If there's something you really want to "fight", there's absolutely no way you could do it from the outside. I have advised him several times not to leave out of frustration, because everything is negotiable if done respectfully. Nevertheless, I've personally followed up on these accusations some months ago (earlier this year) but there's the minimum respect of confidentiality that I'd like to preserve, so I will not go into details, even though the details are positive and contradict Secret's assumptions or misunderstanding. But if I were you and I was really in doubt of the reality, I'd ask for proof of the accusations. Besides, as a currently active developer, it's not really the smartest move to deny yourself all this progress and most importantly, crumble your own reputation as an active developer, if a player of an online game, whom you play with, deserved a rightful ban.

The last thing I want to add is that nobody has been previously 'spared' by GMs because they played with a staff member, and nobody will. Only team leaders have intervened previously, on very rare occasions, to review bans that were rightful by ToS standards but a bit unfair when different scenarios are taken into consideration.

"But if I were you and I was really in doubt of the reality, I'd ask for proof of the accusations. " I mean, I just did. I already have Secret's statement he laid it all out very clearly, we have Dalen saying it's wrong and you stating it was incorrect. I asked for clarification. What more could I do? Thank you for the statement, unless I am incorrect that has been lacking so far. In regards to crumbling reputation and why would you... C'mon guy. People do dumb ****. That's horrible reasoning for not to believe an accusation.

As it stands, one either believes Secret's statement or doesn't. /sigh


Thanks for the response.
Azarael wrote: It's only a nerf if you're bad.

(see, I can shitpost too!)
Secrets wrote: Kindly adjust your attitude to actually help the community and do not impose your will on it. You aren't as powerful as you think.

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GamesBond
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Re: Regarding Global Cooldowns

Post#108 » Thu May 26, 2022 8:50 pm

I'm not keen on dragging this discussion for the whole day. You have a lot of misconceptions that date back to the ToS and the Expectations that you already agreed on before playing, these require a lot of explanation and huge walls of text. On top of that, I've explained the reasoning behind the accusations and how you could interpret them. Lastly, you usually seek evidence from the person laying the accusations or arguments, not from the other person.

I'm available and could allocate time to voice chat on Discord with you and go through anything you'd like to tackle, if you're really interested. If there are also several other people who want to hop-in and chat, I would be glad to schedule a day/hour and we could all e-meet.

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Dabbart
Posts: 2248

Re: Regarding Global Cooldowns

Post#109 » Thu May 26, 2022 9:07 pm

Spoiler:
GamesBond wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 8:50 pm I'm not keen on dragging this discussion for the whole day. You have a lot of misconceptions that date back to the ToS and the Expectations that you already agreed on before playing, these require a lot of explanation and huge walls of text. On top of that, I've explained the reasoning behind the accusations and how you could interpret them. Lastly, you usually seek evidence from the person laying the accusations or arguments, not from the other person.

I'm available and could allocate time to voice chat on Discord with you and go through anything you'd like to tackle, if you're really interested. If there are also several other people who want to hop-in and chat, I would be glad to schedule a day/hour and we could all e-meet.
Ok.

Thanks for your time in replying!
Azarael wrote: It's only a nerf if you're bad.

(see, I can shitpost too!)
Secrets wrote: Kindly adjust your attitude to actually help the community and do not impose your will on it. You aren't as powerful as you think.

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Akalukz
Posts: 1587

Re: Regarding Global Cooldowns

Post#110 » Fri May 27, 2022 11:54 am

as a long-time casual player. You guys are making the game unfun (nb/ap/gcd all of which could have been handled better. sequencer in place before band, gcd done by itself, ap changes review prior to etc). Watch that you don't let the elite ruin the server for your mostly casual playerbase.
-= Agony =-

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