Return of Reckoning

...with

Boons and Banes of the Gods. ((Not the spell titles; but the general system's idea.))

Right now, I'm noticing that Destruction is tending outnumber Order in RVR by a lot during my play times (I now it's tidal). Because of this I'm naturally going to take notice of the systems that are suppose to 'balance it all out'. Namely, the Against All Odds and War-torn Apathy conditions.

These do not work. They are a PVE answer to a PVP problem. WoW tried this by giving bonuses to XP (and coin drops, if I recall) when using the War Mode. New World has tried this by increases in drop chances (and I believe XP). They don't work. Most players in WoW continue to NOT use War Mode because the reward isn't enough to risk getting camped; same with New World.

If you want to solve a PVP Problem, you need a PVP Solution.

Enter, The Gods. Sigmar and (please understand I don't follow the lore as much; don't crucify me! D:) Tzeentch (???).

Sigmar's Boon:
(Affects Order)
Bolsters: Intelligence, Willpower, Strength, Ballistic Skill, Wounds, Toughness, Weapon Skill, and Initiative; Amount is the subject for balance.

Sigmar's Bane:
(Affects Destruction)
Hinders: Damage and Healing by a percentage; Amount is the subject for balance.

Condition for appearance of them both, simultaneously: Order is outnumbered; Amount is the subject for balance.

Tzeentch's Boon:
(Affects Destruction)
Bolsters: Intelligence, Willpower, Strength, Ballistic Skill, Wounds, Toughness, Weapon Skill, and Initiative; Amount is the subject for balance.

Tzeentch's Bane:
(Affects Order)
Hinders: Damage and Healing by a percentage; Amount is the subject for balance.

Condition for appearance; both of them, simultaneously: Order/Destruction is outnumbered; Amount is the subject for balance.


The reason for the asymmetrical buff/debuff is:
a) Prevent 'gear sets' from being made to counter or further-enhance the buff (Stat hard caps, yo).
b) Specifically with the Bane, the reason it's there is because of a body count difference. Body Count can much more easily overcome a Stat decrease than an Output decrease.

The goal isn't to nerf one side or buff another. Its purpose is to even out the Power Projection that both Realms can put forth in a given tier pair.

The idea is: Even with the Boons, due to the lower numbers the Projection of Power will be reduced. Meanwhile, the Banes are 'countered' due to the shear number of players present for that Realm.

It should go without saying that balancing would be critical. But, perhaps, formulaic. Involving the total Order count, total Destruction count, the average level of each Realms fighter, as well as perhaps a Gear Score playing a very small factor. There is zero point in this if one side feels overtly punished.

In short, it should always feel like your side is fighting against an opponent of near-equal strength. Essentially how it is with Scenarios (irregardless of premades), which use Bolstering and limiting the number of participants on each side. To achieve of modicum of balance.

---

AAO/WTA does not work anymore, I suspect, because of the lower population. Essentially those who will RVR are RVRing. Those who don't never will.


Thank you for coming to my WAAGH! Talk.

With respect to the rest of the post I want to point out this paragraph:

These do not work. They are a PVE answer to a PVP problem. WoW tried this by giving bonuses to XP (and coin drops, if I recall) when using the War Mode. New World has tried this by increases in drop chances (and I believe XP). They don't work. Most players in WoW continue to NOT use War Mode because the reward isn't enough to risk getting camped; same with New World.

The difference here is AAO and WTA aren't PvE answers - because they're available in the PvP zones. And the reason people don't put War Mode on in other games is because they are looking to do PvE, questing, levelling and such.

Kaelang wrote: ↑Fri Jul 22, 2022 8:10 pm The difference here is AAO and WTA aren't PvE answers - because they're available in the PvP zones. And the reason people don't put War Mode on in other games is because they are looking to do PvE, questing, levelling and such.

Respectfully, they are PVE answers. Character XP and Renown, along with Influence, plus a bonus to item drops is PVE. Though, Renown is some what a bastard in this case, since PVP Gear requires it.

Just because it's only available in one aspect of the game doesn't make it part of that aspect.

Things like Character XP are completely useless to my lvl 40 WP. The bonus item drops is equally unimportant due to me gearing with War Crest gear. And, finally, the increase Influence will soon be useless (I'm almost Elite status in the Tiers).

AAO is about to become 75% pointless to my lvl 40; 25% being the Renown, which being only RR42 is still quite useful.

If you have 1 Order WB going up against 2/3 Destruction WBs, the Order has no chance at defending or attacking keep(s) in that zone. And moving to another zone isn't always possible due to the Lockouts. Additionally, it doesn't stop Destruction from just following them to the new zone to continue crushing them.

You need to increase the power of a player to combat an enemy with superior numbers not shower them with increased chances for rewards that require they [be able] to get kills.

I think you need to add some sorts of cc immunity to the realm that has significantly lower number of players, or its not going to matter how much you buff them, they won't get attacks off.

TrainInVain wrote: ↑Fri Jul 22, 2022 11:45 pm I think you need to add some sorts of cc immunity to the realm that has significantly lower number of players, or its not going to matter how much you buff them, they won't get attacks off.

I would prefer to start with Stat and Output changes to see if that fixes the issue of what happens when one side outnumbers the other and just steamrolls the entire zone.

Then if that doesn't work, start adding additional boons and banes.

At that point I would change it so the Buffs and Banes have stages.

Basically, as you get more and more beat-down, you become more fervent in your belief that your god will come to your aid. Likewise, as you get more and more overpowered (from body count) you become more arrogant and feeling like you don't need your god's help.

If I were to visual THAT, I would make use of the Morale UI, but the 'building' and 'depletion' is handled by what ever formula is created that seems to best balance both sides against one another.

And the 'pucks' that we click on now would be non-interactive and auto hide until you hovered over the 'pip' to see what that stage of the Boon or Bane is doing for you.

...I'd probably attach it to the Zone Tracker (as labeled in the Layout Editor). Probably just remake that whole UI frame. With two optional appearances: Buff/Bane Stage on top or on bottom of the current Zone Tracker frame; resized to fit between the Order/Destruction emblems.

Since you would never have a situation where you have both the Boon of your god and the Bane of your enemy's god. A single display is all that would be needed.

Worth a try. OP is right the current buffs are 75% useless to cr 40 characters and require the underdog to get kills to benefit. Only the small group AAO farmers benefit but they don't really change pop balance or the course of the campaign, they are just taking advantage of the current system. They just pick off stragglers from the herd but can't really do anything constructive in most cases.

illutian wrote: ↑Fri Jul 22, 2022 10:03 pm
You need to increase the power of a player to combat an enemy with superior numbers not shower them with increased chances for rewards that require they [be able] to get kills.

BRAVO!!!!
Each of your posts make very valid observations and constructive suggestions as to how to try to deal with the issue. Given that the Devs have always said they will entertain any such types of posts I hope they will consider it. It is the only way to deal with overpopulation, by increasing the minority's power.

Interesting. Would this also make solo roamers leave to other maps?

Panzer80 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 23, 2022 2:11 am Interesting. Would this also make solo roamers leave to other maps?

I would expect them to. Because while the Boon's roamers would have an easier time sniping the Bane's roamers. Eventually the Banes would group up; safety in numbers.

However, I would think this is already happening: ie "WE near [spot]" | several Order usually show up to smoke 'em out (taken from my own observations).

AAO should ramp up quicker after like 40% AAO. I'd happily die to larger numbers if i'm getting 8x renown (4x for me while they are at half or less) for each kill. And please remove the realm switch timer if you're going from overpopulated to underdog realm. Once server population hits 60/40, make a realm wide message stating switching is free and then another message warning that free switching is ending in 1 minute.

A far easier solution that doesn't crush small scale fights/solo roaming like this boon/bane stat boosting will inevitably do. You'd just push more and more people away from an already dwindling population.