Witch Elf solo roam

[Tanski]

we can sustain low dmg, if you burst the we, it dies like everyone else.

like 2+ wh can easily kill you in a kd.
well running away is not exactly winning afight vs several opponents...

we is only strong if the fights last long enough so the passive regen makes an impact, if the fights are quick, 7k we health are gone fast.

good thing is there are noch too many good players out there.

ah and btw every class that ignores alot of armor is really tough as we, like slayers, wl, wh, am.


oh and lumpi=lol

ok, and you are totally not a WE defending your class. viewtopic.php?p=519374#p519374

If you think def WE is so strong, go play it.

As second said, there are multiple classes that are much stronger, the time to kill is mediocre, and until def sov a geared WL/BW/ASW can still kill in KD. WH is just better solo, but while wh brings more utility we has better st pressure in 6s, it’s a give and take. WE also doesn’t have to fight deftard sham and magus

[lumpi33]

Not like im zealous not accepting others opinion, its just that its hard for me to understand from where are you coming from with those statements as i feel crucial context is lacking.
In regards to WE/WH since past year there are alot of threads with big discussions. Opinions differ. And like was mentioned game modes do have their own balance.
So WE/WH being strong as a roamer (WH being incredibly strong, WE generally considered worse in comparison), strong in st city group, decent in 6v6 (but far from being strongest) while hugely lacking in orvr WB doesnt seems to me as a disaster requiring emergency balance interventions (like you seem to call here).

That context is not easy to give without making long posts nobody would read.

I wouldn't give to much on these stealther discussion threads. There are too many people in there spreading wrong information just to keep their toon as it is. Nor would I consider WE worse than WH. WH might have the upper hand in 1:1 but overall the WE seems to do better. Ranked results for example have shown that. City results as well.

It is not a disaster but it does have an impact. For newer players it is probably not fun to get jumped by stealthers once they leave the warcamp. Getting jumped from stealth is never fun. Whether it is a new player or a veteran. Having so many stealthers around you can barely have a fight without getting jumped by some of them. It got pretty extrem over the last year. These stealthers are everywhere.

For me sheer amount of stealthers is not so "clear indicator" of class being too powerful. I can think of oRvR campaign mechanic lacking too much that people dont bother to form strong groups outside primetime but there are still many players who are willing/able to play in off hours but dont want to pug finding such experience as awful (fair enough imo). Thus they pick a suitable class and just roam. Cause roaming was and still (to some extent) is "Fun". Doesnt it explains the sheer amount of stealthers as well? I think it does.

"clear indicator" was a bit bad wording here. It's more of "one" indicator. The thing about indicators is that you combine them to get a picture. Great toolkit on paper -> indicator, Lots of people rolling it -> indicator, Good performance in ranked -> indicator, High kill count and damage in cities -> indicator, Lots of videos showing are great they are doing -> indicator, Ingame first hand experience with them -> indicator

Stupid to argue that there should be no meta shifts at all but howeever consider that there is lacking manpower on a team to tailor really huge game mechanic changes. Its not AAA title to support such and thus somewhat stable state considered as better than a chaos overhaul full of bugs.

While this is certainly true, how hard is it to change the damage numbers of abilities when it is obvious that they are too high or too low? There is no need for complete overhauls.

> I could say the same about your posts. You can post your opinion, I post mine. That's it. Like it or not.
Yes, you can. However you never answered anything of what i said in specific nor debunk my points. e.g. my engi/magi post you simple ignored telling me i need to prove something, however all the proves are well known to everyone who was part of decent organised guild and (or) joined solid teams in orvr/cities. i told you names of people that were doing wonders on those classes. and thats really enough. if not you could just ask for a link or something.

You were talking about "one" city result of an Engi in a thread about ORVR.

Beside that it's kinda strange how fast certain classes got nerfed due to outstanding numbers in certain areas while for other classes it's only a "git gud".

> absorbs
Absorbs is a part of current "time-to-kill" meta. Changing it one needs an aim, a goal. What should this goal be and why? Those questions are not answered, nor you touch them yourself. Its incredibly reckless to touch this fundamental aspect of game simply throwing it out of formula or tweaking it otherwise somehow. It needs very in-depth analysis of consequences. No data currently supports "time-to-kill" counts in any of game modes. Biggest problem is that each game mode having its own balance but change will affect every one of them. Discussions of should TTK be lower or higher are endless and pretty pointless. Dont you understand it?
So im part of community members that think - at first, find a clear stable state, mechanic/abilities bugs should be fixed and only then, then game reaches clear stable state there is a place to figure how meta shakes should be done and what exact goals they should be reaching. And also there are way too much fundamental reworks required than game mechanic - most do believe that making orvr fun again is way more important.

While I agree to a certain extend, there is no need to overcomplicate things. Small steps are usually the best approach.

[lumpi33]

Edit: yeah, and you kinda prove it with your response to Sulorie. You are not arguing, debunking points or whatever. Just type some statements out of the blue (and context). Thats why people react like this

Stealthers have been discussed up and down on the forums. What arguments do you wanna hear? Everything has been said already. Just play the game and have an eye on the good ones and you will see what's up.

Arguing with Sulorie? No, thanks

[Sulorie]

...

For newer players it is probably not fun to get jumped by stealthers once they leave the warcamp. Getting jumped from stealth is never fun. Whether it is a new player or a veteran. Having so many stealthers around you can barely have a fight without getting jumped by some of them. It got pretty extrem over the last year. These stealthers are everywhere.
...

Basically this is the thread in a nutshell. Solo player frustration about being ganked in rvr zone, when leaving warcamp to get to a warband, in case they have one. There is no safety, for this reason you don't walk alone.
On top of that some skilled ones kill multiple opponents, which shouldn't be possible in your opinion.
I tell you what, it isn't possible unless the victims "help" you to succeed.

[lumpi33]

...

For newer players it is probably not fun to get jumped by stealthers once they leave the warcamp. Getting jumped from stealth is never fun. Whether it is a new player or a veteran. Having so many stealthers around you can barely have a fight without getting jumped by some of them. It got pretty extrem over the last year. These stealthers are everywhere.
...

Basically this is the thread in a nutshell. Solo player frustration about being ganked in rvr zone, when leaving warcamp to get to a warband, in case they have one. There is no safety, for this reason you don't walk alone.
On top of that some skilled ones kill multiple opponents, which shouldn't be possible in your opinion.
I tell you what, it isn't possible unless the victims "help" you to succeed.

Sure and the reason for people playing Choppas is because they are big and green and for Slayers that they are small and naked, right?

All the indicators paint a different picture. You are totally ignoring them and make up random stuff that fits into your vision to explain the overpowered state of certain classes.

In a nutshell, balance is not as good as you think it is.

[Sulorie]

All the indicators paint a different picture. You are totally ignoring them and make up random stuff that fits into your vision to explain the overpowered state of certain classes.

First of, I made no balance assessment but nevermind, let's look at your indicators.

"Great toolkit on paper -> indicator, Lots of people rolling it -> indicator, Good performance in ranked -> indicator, High kill count and damage in cities -> indicator, Lots of videos showing are great they are doing -> indicator, Ingame first hand experience with them -> indicator"

Well, you make it really tough here. You can insert so many classes on all your "indicators". At the same time you seem to ignore all the unnumbered people who do poorly on said classes.
While other classes are stacked in warbands, you find WH/WE solo or in gank groups, as they are not wanted for RVR WB in significant numbers. E.g. engineer are played a lot but unlike other classes they are stacked on keep walls...
Make a video of yourself encountering them x vs 1 and I will tell you what happens on your screen.

[Hugatsaga]

@OP: very good video, amazingly played as always.

About class balance:

I don't think that highlight reel of good player owning noobs in 1vsX is very good basis for balance discussion. Dying to defensive specced player is usually a choice anyway, it's just that more inexperienced players don't know that. For every good fight theres probably few cases of getting detaunted and then zerged down by group or warband 10 secs after but those don't make very entertaining videos.

'

No. Damage too high for defensive build. Reggen too high, needs to be affected by heal debuffs. Throwing Daggers should not proc. Vanish is on a too short cool down. 600 absorb after crit too strong. Nerf these things down then we can talk about relatively good balance.

Daggers absolutely should proc. Afaik every other class gets their procs from throwing axes etc. Only thing you can reasonably argue is should daggers be undefendable or not. You have long list of "pls nerf these" about WE but anyone can list good tactics/skills/tricks for every class. Like OP said there are better 1vs1 or 1vsX classes. WH has more defensive tools by default so they can go more offensive and are way scarier as a result. Shammies are pain in the ass, good IB's are raid bosses and good defensive maguses can facetank my WL, outlast me and will kill me if I stick around. What really makes WE/WH popular is their good old regular stealth. That helps them to get in good fights and makes gameplay lot more fun because you don't have to die to zerg every 5min or so.

'

You are a good player reynor but if you don't understand that a class with stealth and lots of tools and damage shouldn't be able to vanish and leave the fight whenever they want then you dont even understand the very basics of class balance.

Quick stealth is hardly a foreign concept to stealth classes. By your logic WoW, ESO etc designers don't understand very basics of class balance either?
Also you are not leaving the fight just like that. WE/WH quick stealth is 2 sec and while it resets target, it doesn't break channels already started and prevents using pots during that time so they die quite a lot while in quick stealth and will get chased down a lot after as well.

'

Every class needs weaknesses. For WEs/WHs they patched all weaknesses away. They are monsters in small scale and doing good in every game mode.

Nope, they are still useless in large scale fights. All they have is small scale.

'

WEs/WHs didn't have that unbreakable perma stealth and vanish for a reason in live WAR.

It's not unbreakable. It has a chance to break on damage. Also WE/WH can be randomly spotted with initiative roll.

I don’t know who you are, but I think you don’t understand the balance of builds and classes too well if you write like that
the build is still good, but it is no longer imbalanced
on my wh, I can easily kill any def WE, and sometimes two at once...

If your really think that WEs are balanced the way they are at the moment then I think you shouldn't talk about balance anymore. Not saying that WH don't need them as well in certain areas.

You clearly shouldn't be talking about balance in the first place.

[nocturnalguest]

...
That context is not easy to give without making long posts nobody would read.

Well, if you want people to react and discuss things than you need to elaborate on your points. Walls of text are totally ok.

...
You were talking about "one" city result of an Engi in a thread about ORVR.

Beside that it's kinda strange how fast certain classes got nerfed due to outstanding numbers in certain areas while for other classes it's only a "git gud".
...

Its not cool to derail this thread like this (i do accept i started it myself tho), but look, thats just not true, i wasnt talking about "one" city result. here is a link to a post viewtopic.php?p=521890#p521890

here you go with another example https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 91da3b9193 (not only tops damage but has highest damage contribution to kill in his team and also, DESTRO TEAM LOST THAT MATCH WHILE MAGUS DOUBLING THE NUMBERS OF WL FROM WINNING (!!!) ORDER TEAM)
again, premade vs premade. just like the first i linked. And i did explain myself why taking city into account is fair enough in regards to orvr.
Restlin doing 12 million damage in city is also a well-known fact. You the number guy, go figure what prevents such players to dominate the scoreboard in orvr. And i tell you - nothing. Actually in orvr they may even do better in defenses/forts.
So, i debunked all your claims/points about engi/magi while you ignored mine. Thats how it looks.

And look, again, choppa/slayer&balance&indicators&overpowered and rest of what you are talking about. Everything at the moment in game has a counter play. Everything. I call it balance.
So dont be salty, just ask questions or create walls of text but please stop triggering people with your bold one-liners that we struggle to guess what you mean.

[geezereur]

A small thing here wh and we should not be able to restealth just because they pop an absorb pot and take no damage when hit.

[Toshutkidup]

That’s some good reading.. ok back to watching Twitch streams.