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Basic Consensus For SW Fixes?

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Structured class balance suggestions belong in the Balance Proposal subforum. Class-related discussion in this section are considered as ongoing debates and ARE NOT reviewed for balance changes.
Farrul
Posts: 282

Re: Basic Consensus For SW Fixes?

Post#51 » Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:26 am

Avernus wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 8:50 am1) As far as i can remember - you can't jump away from your target if your target is immune to snare. You must apply your snare first and only if you managed to do so you can jump away. SH has the same problem. Well, that was on live so i can't say that it's 100% true.

2) Yes, if you are jumping you are still susceptable to CC. Kinda bad (and it's even worse that while SH has some other options SW has whole lot of nothing).
That's very interesting, imho in that case(if by design)the ability is not nearly adequate enough and the SW is in desperate need of a new defensive option. If it is a bug it should get top dev priority for a fix as it is very unfair indeed - seriously any melee class can just abuse this over and over and nothing about this limitation is explained in the tooltip(obviously).

Thus why i mentioned Squig herders, they have a better layer of defensive options to compensate for this ability but a fix should include the Squig Herder version as well.

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Avernus
Posts: 321

Re: Basic Consensus For SW Fixes?

Post#52 » Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:59 am

Farrul wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:26 am
Avernus wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 8:50 am1) As far as i can remember - you can't jump away from your target if your target is immune to snare. You must apply your snare first and only if you managed to do so you can jump away. SH has the same problem. Well, that was on live so i can't say that it's 100% true.

2) Yes, if you are jumping you are still susceptable to CC. Kinda bad (and it's even worse that while SH has some other options SW has whole lot of nothing).
That's very interesting, imho in that case(if by design)the ability is not nearly adequate enough and the SW is in desperate need of a new defensive option. If it is a bug it should get top dev priority for a fix as it is very unfair indeed - seriously any melee class can just abuse this over and over and nothing about this limitation is explained in the tooltip(obviously).

Thus why i mentioned Squig herders, they have a better layer of defensive options to compensate for this ability but a fix should include the Squig Herder version as well.
On live you could just mix 90+rr def set with some armor talismans and tank this melee train. Actually tanked full melee premades on ekrund's gate with this (with AoE detaunt, nice tactic for melee oriented sc). Obviously, with good healing and sometimes even guard. Only WE and mara (savagery) were a bit tricky.
Now i can't see anything that will allow you to survive that good. We don't have any options besides Whirling Pin. Tank the damage or die.

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Fenris78
Posts: 787

Re: Basic Consensus For SW Fixes?

Post#53 » Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:43 am

Avernus wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 8:50 am
Farrul wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 8:29 am Alas, so many things to fix with the class, i will add: Whirling Pin.

This ability is vital for the Shadow Warrior's defences yet it is unreliable and will result in many deaths.

Problem(s):

1)The animation and Cooldown will fire off despite the ability doing nothing and the SW standing there dumbstruck, this happens frequently when e.g knocked down, i can't tell what is the cause but it's annoying as hell and punishes players with High APM (action per minute, which is required to play a squishy archer class efficiently).

2) When it triggers a pull can reverse direction // cancel the animation mid-air, this again will result in many death's. The bugged-range Marauder pull is especially a cause for this.

unlike 'bow' Squig herders Shadow warrior's do not have the privilege of multiple defensive abilities, the one's we got need to at least work properly, otherwise imho a new defensive tool is needed.
1) As far as i can remember - you can't jump away from your target if your target is immune to snare. You must apply your snare first and only if you managed to do so you can jump away. SH has the same problem. Well, that was on live so i can't say that it's 100% true.

2) Yes, if you are jumping you are still susceptable to CC. Kinda bad (and it's even worse that while SH has some other options SW has whole lot of nothing).
There is no snare immunity in RoR. Whirling pin is only required to hit one enemy in the 30ft radius, and is unblockable (just like the backdash from WH/WE, with the notable difference it's an 30ft AoE and not a melee ST skill, wich makes WP very reliable).

The only difference with the SW and SH being, Order side you have to fight against multiple pulls (Choppas, Maras) wich counteract your whirling pin (you got stopped mid-air most of the time), and you need to survive a couple more seconds to be able to jump back, if the pull happened before.

SH wont have to be insta-pulled, and can effectively avoid WL pulls just using their backdash ability, plus the free 30% charge for 10s (with still being able to kd/disarm/snare you while running because it's the only charge skill wich wont break on ability use).


Whirling pin should make you immune from pulls for the flight duration (let's say 3s), because actually, being the only base defensive skill for SW it should not face as much pulls there is now Destruction side...

SW is still a very squishy class, running with zero toughness and 7k HP in BiS gear, light armored (outside of assault stance, the only reliable defensive option the class sadly got), and who cannot survive/kite as efficient compared to his SH counterpart.

Let's give SW (all specs) a basic core skill like the SH charge ?
Something like "Shadow Haste : you vanish into shadows for 2s, and got a 30% speed buff for 10s (can use skills without breaking the effect)" ?
Like a signature skill for a character called SHADOW Warrior ?

Avernus
Posts: 321

Re: Basic Consensus For SW Fixes?

Post#54 » Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:10 am

Fenris78 wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:43 am 1. There is no snare immunity in RoR. Whirling pin is only required to hit one enemy in the 30ft radius, and is unblockable (just like the backdash from WH/WE, with the notable difference it's an 30ft AoE and not a melee ST skill, wich makes WP very reliable).

2. The only difference with the SW and SH being, Order side you have to fight against multiple pulls (Choppas, Maras) wich counteract your whirling pin (you got stopped mid-air most of the time), and you need to survive a couple more seconds to be able to jump back, if the pull happened before.

3. SH wont have to be insta-pulled, and can effectively avoid WL pulls just using their backdash ability, plus the free 30% charge for 10s (with still being able to kd/disarm/snare you while running because it's the only charge skill wich wont break on ability use).


4. Whirling pin should make you immune from pulls for the flight duration (let's say 3s), because actually, being the only base defensive skill for SW it should not face as much pulls there is now Destruction side...

5. SW is still a very squishy class, running with zero toughness and 7k HP in BiS gear, light armored (outside of assault stance, the only reliable defensive option the class sadly got), and who cannot survive/kite as efficient compared to his SH counterpart.

Let's give SW (all specs) a basic core skill like the SH charge ?
Something like "Shadow Haste : you vanish into shadows for 2s, and got a 30% speed buff for 10s (can use skills without breaking the effect)" ?
Like a signature skill for a character called SHADOW Warrior ?
1.
Spoiler:
Image
What? Maybe it was changed "recently" (this is from RoR builder and it's not that accurate).

2. And the fact that mara pull is flashy which helps destro to gang up on you.

3. And you can't dispel Run Awal unlike VoN (well, not you, order in general). Makes sense. Absolutely balanced.

4. Sounds good but i doubt we can expect this to happen. I wish at least SOMETHING to happen.

5. Nice idea bro. Too bad WE already has something like that. To "balance things" ofc. Witchbrew+undefendable throwing daggers which can kill you at distance when you try to kite this creature included.

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Fenris78
Posts: 787

Re: Basic Consensus For SW Fixes?

Post#55 » Tue Nov 22, 2022 12:01 pm

Avernus wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:10 am
Spoiler:
Fenris78 wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:43 am 1. There is no snare immunity in RoR. Whirling pin is only required to hit one enemy in the 30ft radius, and is unblockable (just like the backdash from WH/WE, with the notable difference it's an 30ft AoE and not a melee ST skill, wich makes WP very reliable).

2. The only difference with the SW and SH being, Order side you have to fight against multiple pulls (Choppas, Maras) wich counteract your whirling pin (you got stopped mid-air most of the time), and you need to survive a couple more seconds to be able to jump back, if the pull happened before.

3. SH wont have to be insta-pulled, and can effectively avoid WL pulls just using their backdash ability, plus the free 30% charge for 10s (with still being able to kd/disarm/snare you while running because it's the only charge skill wich wont break on ability use).


4. Whirling pin should make you immune from pulls for the flight duration (let's say 3s), because actually, being the only base defensive skill for SW it should not face as much pulls there is now Destruction side...

5. SW is still a very squishy class, running with zero toughness and 7k HP in BiS gear, light armored (outside of assault stance, the only reliable defensive option the class sadly got), and who cannot survive/kite as efficient compared to his SH counterpart.

Let's give SW (all specs) a basic core skill like the SH charge ?
Something like "Shadow Haste : you vanish into shadows for 2s, and got a 30% speed buff for 10s (can use skills without breaking the effect)" ?
Like a signature skill for a character called SHADOW Warrior ?
1.
Spoiler:
Image
What? Maybe it was changed "recently" (this is from RoR builder and it's not that accurate).

2. And the fact that mara pull is flashy which helps destro to gang up on you.

3. And you can't dispel Run Awal unlike VoN (well, not you, order in general). Makes sense. Absolutely balanced.

4. Sounds good but i doubt we can expect this to happen. I wish at least SOMETHING to happen.

5. Nice idea bro. Too bad WE already has something like that. To "balance things" ofc. Witchbrew+undefendable throwing daggers which can kill you at distance when you try to kite this creature included.
Oh sorry, I meant you dont need to snare your target with Whirling Pin to do the backdash successfully, albeit you sure wont be far enough to kite well (mdps can just ignore the effect ofc and still run to you).

3. Sure, another example of how skills ergonomics are slightly skewed in favor of destruction classes.
Thus, practically speaking I never got VoN cleansed, and I dont think it's easy to cleanse Run Away from a distance (you need an AM and tactic trigger at this moment for that).

4. Yes, or give our Whirling Pin a slight speed boost, like 20% for 5-10s, a bit like the WL jump.

5. I thought something equivalent, since "Shadow Warrior" should have a signature "Shadowing" ability, outside of shadowstep (wich is not a core ability, and only for assault stance).
And yes, WB+daggers is still disgusting, hope this aberration will disappear after they finish to rework the global abilities underlying system.

Farrul
Posts: 282

Re: Basic Consensus For SW Fixes?

Post#56 » Tue Nov 22, 2022 12:32 pm

Fenris78 wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:43 am
There is no snare immunity in RoR. Whirling pin is only required to hit one enemy in the 30ft radius, and is unblockable (just like the backdash from WH/WE, with the notable difference it's an 30ft AoE and not a melee ST skill, wich makes WP very reliable).
As for reliability what about point 1)?

If it isn't the snare-check as suggested then what is preventing the self-punt from working when the ability goes into cooldown/animation(without the actual self-punt) triggers?


Destro pulls aside the skill itself isn't reliable without a proper interrupt-check like you would expect from every ability in the game.

Fenris78 wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:43 amWhirling pin should make you immune from pulls for the flight duration (let's say 3s), because actually, being the only base defensive skill for SW it should not face as much pulls there is now Destruction side...

SW is still a very squishy class, running with zero toughness and 7k HP in BiS gear, light armored (outside of assault stance, the only reliable defensive option the class sadly got), and who cannot survive/kite as efficient compared to his SH counterpart.

Let's give SW (all specs) a basic core skill like the SH charge ?
Something like "Shadow Haste : you vanish into shadows for 2s, and got a 30% speed buff for 10s (can use skills without breaking the effect)" ?
Like a signature skill for a character called SHADOW Warrior ?
Yes agreed, the self-punt should be immune from pulls during the duration of the flight.

''Shadow haste'' is a solid suggestion and feels like a logical step the devs could take to help the class out. Squig herders have comparatively more active none- mastery abilities than SW (just check the carrer page) so there is certainly room for it.

Avernus
Posts: 321

Re: Basic Consensus For SW Fixes?

Post#57 » Tue Nov 22, 2022 1:36 pm

Fenris78 wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 12:01 pm 1. Oh sorry, I meant you dont need to snare your target with Whirling Pin to do the backdash successfully, albeit you sure wont be far enough to kite well (mdps can just ignore the effect ofc and still run to you).

2. Sure, another example of how skills ergonomics are slightly skewed in favor of destruction classes.
Thus, practically speaking I never got VoN cleansed, and I dont think it's easy to cleanse Run Away from a distance (you need an AM and tactic trigger at this moment for that).

3. Yes, or give our Whirling Pin a slight speed boost, like 20% for 5-10s, a bit like the WL jump.
1. I was talking about the situation on live and that maybe this is the same case in RoR. But i'm not saying that i'm 100% sure about that.

2. That is the problem of aSW.
And yes it's hard to clean Run Away from a distance but that would be helpful if it was cleansable - no more "M2+Run Away+middle finger" walking away from the enemy while being snared.

3. Maybe, but the problem is still here - what to do if your WP failed?

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wiscel
Posts: 481

Re: Basic Consensus For SW Fixes?

Post#58 » Tue Nov 22, 2022 4:01 pm

I lost count the times Whirling Pin on my SW was not working at all. All I see in my combat log it is being parried or blocked.
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Fenris78
Posts: 787

Re: Basic Consensus For SW Fixes?

Post#59 » Tue Nov 22, 2022 4:47 pm

wiscel wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 4:01 pm I lost count the times Whirling Pin on my SW was not working at all. All I see in my combat log it is being parried or blocked.
Maybe a long time ago those skills were parriable (just like Magus/Engie landmines were disruptable, and backdash from WH/WE possibly too), but not anymore ; I never parried a SH's backjump with my tank or my aSW (with 60+% parry or so), and nobody parried or blocked my whirling pin to my recent knowledge.

Afaik, as soon you got one enemy within the 30ft mark, your skill should always trigger.

The only times you think your skill didnt work, are either :

1. You were KD/staggered at the start of animation (and this sucks and need to be changed, i.e. you should still backdash even if staggered/KDed like every other pull/punt in game)

2. You were pulled at the same time, resulting in you staying in place instead of preforming the move. Still the skill have been performed. Those cases are only due to Destro available pulls and generally spammed everywhere, as well as AoE stagger from chosens ar AoE KD from maras.

But these are Order issues because too much AoE CC available Destruction side.
Hard to tell if a SH ever been prevented to backdash since Order classes simply cannot do that, saving mirrored CC skills, wich are generally ST.

dtjror
Posts: 82

Re: Basic Consensus For SW Fixes?

Post#60 » Tue Nov 22, 2022 5:43 pm

Avernus wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 8:58 am
Ruin wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 8:39 am I would propose those changes improve SW, they don’t require new abilities or tactics just improve on the existing ones:

- Revert damage changes for BHA, back to the multiplier before the change with stacking BHA
- Make Split Arrows affect Draw Blood, and Grim Slash so it would affect area around your target, maybe a 50% -75% of the area.
- Swap Flame arrow with Eye Shot to Scout, since its affected by this mastery tactics,
1. Can't say anything about this.
2. Basically, allow aSW to do AoE. Dunno i'm not sure that this should be a top priority change but...Split Arrows are kinda useless now anyway unless you just want to leech rr.
3. It's not even improvement (more like rollback) but yes - just make Eye Shot like it was before.
Personally I hated BHA stacking - what a drool sh*t mechanic. But if they put FA back in Scout with 100 ft range, and provided a way for SS to be cast close to that (old Powerful Draw), then you could stack 3 dots at (close to) max range again, with the added bonus of one of them being AOE and one being healdebuff. Plus they should change BHA and SS to be resistance based, so the dots suck just a little less.

Reducing the CD on Sweeping Slash is the easier solution to melee AOE. Seems to be pretty wide consensus on that being needed/wanted.

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