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Basic Consensus For SW Fixes?

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Fenris78
Posts: 787

Re: Basic Consensus For SW Fixes?

Post#31 » Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:41 am

geezereur wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 9:03 am They should make Steady Aim be a dam proc again that was way better than it is now.
Steady Aim is now the best version so far ; for a class that can easily reach over 50% crit chance without any single renown spent, the crit bonus is very useful.

Of course a +50% crit damage would be even better, but it will become a 87% crit damage bonus under Vengeance, so maybe a bit much. Or decrease to 20 or 15% the AP malus.

Previously, Steady Aim was ultra bad ; iirc it only affected Scout abilities, direct damage ones only, for a flat +15 added AP cost (wich was about +50% AP increase)...
No bonus to DoTs or any skirmish skill, wich further crippled Skirm specs.

Now Steady Aim is still a very good bonus, provided you play Bullseye with remotely enough base crit chances.
You even can go up to 66% crit chance with skirmish, liniment, legendary talisman and full renown + minmaxed sov set. So I'll take that for my AoE skirm spec :p...


Indeed, Skirmish and scout SW specs are still lacking punch and burst ; I tested on constructs (BiS warlord/Triumph + BL weapon + Lini), and got about half the Assault mode DPS (around 25s to down the target, instead of 16s in Assault mode), and I even was using No respite tactic to get a +15% damage from 45ft away...

So yes, the SW ranged DPS is still uber bad, especially compared to other ranged dps classes around there (Inge, BW, even DPS AM...).


Most of OP's suggestions are needed, like return of a 80-100ft healdebuff (to help scout and skirmish), and some adjustements to base damage of ranged skills, and/or more utility to some skills (make something with sweeping slash pretty please, in actual state this skill could as well not exist at all).

Some ideas :


- Make Acid Arrow castable on the move ; remove block debuff, but increase armor debuff.
Since it's a ST skill, useable in all stances, it would make more sense to have it that way.
The block debuff is not needed since we have access to plenty strikethrough and avoidances debuff by tactics and gear.


- Make Eye Shot (ranged KD) castable on the move, but reduce range to 80 ft ;
it will now allow more flexibility for skirmish/scout builds, wich are gimped from many mobility options after this change.

- Make Shadow Sting (heal debuff) a 80ft skill ;
same reasoning for skirmish range, now that range tactic is gone and pretty much all other main skirmish skills are 80-100 ft range (BHA, SFA, Flame Arrow)

- Up base damage of BHA, to match similar 15s DoTs around here, and/or make it do magic damage (spirit or corp ?) under Vengeful.
BHA is still underwhelming (half the damage of Gettin Smarter from a DPS Sham... no comment), and still doesnt match with similar 15s DoTs (Inge, BW, etc, wich have all access to AoE resistances debuffs, while SW have to struggle with armor).

- Reduce cd of Sweeping Slash to 5s, and/or make it debuff something for enemy ;
at least a 20s aoe debuff, anything, would be better than this pityful state.

- Reduce CD between Stance change to 3s ;
We dont need a so much long CD, especially when you need to switch stance to apply some debuffs (ailments and snare from skirmish only, before getting in assault or scout). And the "bug" wich still launch the 5s when you miss the stance dansing (switching to already active stance) is often a death sentence.

- Give SW slightly more wounds on gear, and/or more defensive options (magic resistances, avoidances, self-healing) added to a skill or two ;
Assault stance alone is not going to make it for the Zero Toughness / 7k HP issue, even in BiS gear without min-maxing, talismans and renown into HP, we barely get above 8k HP, with light armor and close to zero toughness, it's the squishiest rDPS around. Even rSH got a instant healing option + damage reduction tactic...

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SuperStar
Posts: 403

Re: Basic Consensus For SW Fixes?

Post#32 » Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:07 am

In my opinion your suggestions just make another welf (i mean op imba regen welf).

The mSW is really cool in solo/small scale

The ranged need something to be an option in a normal wb. Bw has dmg, engi has cc.
Hard to balance if they can switch stance all the time.

And i really dont want to see more semi god class like regen welf am/sh.

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normanis
Posts: 1304
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Re: Basic Consensus For SW Fixes?

Post#33 » Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:19 am

great ideas from fenrys and deadpoet. byt move skirmisher back to 80feet aoe i dont like to be in pull range (when its so bugged).
"Iron Within, Iron Without!"

Farrul
Posts: 282

Re: Basic Consensus For SW Fixes?

Post#34 » Wed Nov 09, 2022 2:17 pm

SuperStar wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:07 am In my opinion your suggestions just make another welf (i mean op imba regen welf).
Wait, what? How are they even comparable?

I don't see any suggestion made in this thread that would make a 'bow' SW over the top or a solo roaming monster = regen we, most make sense and some are long overdue (skirmish range increase).

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Deadpoet
Posts: 313

Re: Basic Consensus For SW Fixes?

Post#35 » Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:23 pm

Fenris78 wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:41 am
geezereur wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 9:03 am They should make Steady Aim be a dam proc again that was way better than it is now.
Steady Aim is now the best version so far ; for a class that can easily reach over 50% crit chance without any single renown spent, the crit bonus is very useful.

Of course a +50% crit damage would be even better, but it will become a 87% crit damage bonus under Vengeance, so maybe a bit much. Or decrease to 20 or 15% the AP malus.

Previously, Steady Aim was ultra bad ; iirc it only affected Scout abilities, direct damage ones only, for a flat +15 added AP cost (wich was about +50% AP increase)...
No bonus to DoTs or any skirmish skill, wich further crippled Skirm specs.

Now Steady Aim is still a very good bonus, provided you play Bullseye with remotely enough base crit chances.
You even can go up to 66% crit chance with skirmish, liniment, legendary talisman and full renown + minmaxed sov set. So I'll take that for my AoE skirm spec :p...


Indeed, Skirmish and scout SW specs are still lacking punch and burst ; I tested on constructs (BiS warlord/Triumph + BL weapon + Lini), and got about half the Assault mode DPS (around 25s to down the target, instead of 16s in Assault mode), and I even was using No respite tactic to get a +15% damage from 45ft away...

So yes, the SW ranged DPS is still uber bad, especially compared to other ranged dps classes around there (Inge, BW, even DPS AM...).


Most of OP's suggestions are needed, like return of a 80-100ft healdebuff (to help scout and skirmish), and some adjustements to base damage of ranged skills, and/or more utility to some skills (make something with sweeping slash pretty please, in actual state this skill could as well not exist at all).

Some ideas :


- Make Acid Arrow castable on the move ; remove block debuff, but increase armor debuff.
Since it's a ST skill, useable in all stances, it would make more sense to have it that way.
The block debuff is not needed since we have access to plenty strikethrough and avoidances debuff by tactics and gear.


- Make Eye Shot (ranged KD) castable on the move, but reduce range to 80 ft ;
it will now allow more flexibility for skirmish/scout builds, wich are gimped from many mobility options after this change.

- Make Shadow Sting (heal debuff) a 80ft skill ;
same reasoning for skirmish range, now that range tactic is gone and pretty much all other main skirmish skills are 80-100 ft range (BHA, SFA, Flame Arrow)

- Up base damage of BHA, to match similar 15s DoTs around here, and/or make it do magic damage (spirit or corp ?) under Vengeful.
BHA is still underwhelming (half the damage of Gettin Smarter from a DPS Sham... no comment), and still doesnt match with similar 15s DoTs (Inge, BW, etc, wich have all access to AoE resistances debuffs, while SW have to struggle with armor).

- Reduce cd of Sweeping Slash to 5s, and/or make it debuff something for enemy ;
at least a 20s aoe debuff, anything, would be better than this pityful state.

- Reduce CD between Stance change to 3s ;
We dont need a so much long CD, especially when you need to switch stance to apply some debuffs (ailments and snare from skirmish only, before getting in assault or scout). And the "bug" wich still launch the 5s when you miss the stance dansing (switching to already active stance) is often a death sentence.

- Give SW slightly more wounds on gear, and/or more defensive options (magic resistances, avoidances, self-healing) added to a skill or two ;
Assault stance alone is not going to make it for the Zero Toughness / 7k HP issue, even in BiS gear without min-maxing, talismans and renown into HP, we barely get above 8k HP, with light armor and close to zero toughness, it's the squishiest rDPS around. Even rSH got a instant healing option + damage reduction tactic...
This.

Some things I'd like to add.
1. I totally agree that acid arrow should be castable on the move, at least in skirmish stance. It could remain a stop to cast ability when in Scout. (debatable in assault) Similarly, takedown shouldn't perhaps be castable on the move in Scout, but yes in skirmish, so that stances remain meaningful and true to original design. Right now Scout and Skirmish are a bit mixed up and unsettled after the latest rework, which I feel is not a finished product.

2. I like the idea of adding a debuff to Sweeping Slash. A cd reduction shouldn't be necessary. I suggested making it an AoE armor debuff, something that zealots have on destro and that would go a long way towards making assault SWs more desirable in group and warband play.

3. Also you are absolutely right that SW needs more wounds on gear and more defensive options. Assault SWs have more than enough avoidance with high native parry and Shadowstep, but Scout/Skirmish are lacking in that department (This is maybe as it should be, as ranged classes don't have great avoidance in this game compared to melee or tanks, if you don't count concealment morale )
BUT all other ranged classes have:
a - some form of self heal
b- some form of absorb (magus, BW, sorc) or magical resists self buff and racial resistance to hard cc (engy)

to be a threat out there, a SW has to equip tactics and gear that leave the class with ZERO toughness, LOW hp, VERY LOW magical resists, and (if you equip Bullseye), a ridiculously high chance to be crit, even spending renown on FS.

Avernus
Posts: 321

Re: Basic Consensus For SW Fixes?

Post#36 » Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:29 am

Mostly, i do agree with everything said above but i would like to repeat (or add) some things which should help SW to be at least decent.

1. All skirmish abilities should be 100ft (or 98ft like on live, doesn't matter). With tactic or without it.
Why? Because our main enemies at range(sorc, magus, shaman (he is better as rdps right now lol)) are all 100ft+. 65ft it's just a joke, without Shadow Sting you can't even start to apply pressure on sorc before you're getting on 5s timer "detaunt or die" (and maybe "detaunt and die anyway" because you have no wounds pre-sentinel and even the you are squishie and zero toughness isn't helping).
And pulls... (yeah that mara is smiling every time you try to do smth...i wonder why?).
Obviosly, SH should get this too.

2. Return Eye shot where it belongs - skirmish, castable on the move.
Why was that change made in the first place? To make any melee even more likely to kill you? Choppa and mara can charge and pull you, and WE now have second stealth+dash and undefendable thowing daggers+witchbrew which deal damage comparable to spiral arrow (what is this eh?!).

3. Return flame arrow where it belongs (scout). Its currently completely useless.
Suggestion. Make this skill to work like 5s WoP (deals damage when the timer ends). Damage should be something like 2/3 FA. That will allow you to combo it with FA for a nice burst, it's still weaker than BW/Sorc burst but you can (and should) apply Shadow Sting too. There is no SW without Shadow Sting anyway. SH should probably get this too.

4. Return M2 with 100% damage.
This SHOULD NOT be accessible for assault/scout(unless the only thing this scout can is spam EE) Definetly not for FA/flame arrow one shot. Make this final skirmish morale but M2 instead of M4 or something like that. Why? Because skirmish still lacks punch to kill some squishie single handedly and this will allow SW to do this. Just like in live, you're assising your dps/apply some pressure to backline and then go for the kill with M2.
SH and engie should get this too. SH should get this for full quck shootin and engie...dunno actually, probably for full sniper because the whole point of this is to compensate lack of damage/and the fact that physical damage is inferior compared to magic damage (well, unless you have slayer-level damage). So no M2 for magus.

5. Do something with Lileath's arrow? I mean it's actually cool to use it in your rotation (with current 65ft skirmish we don't have much of a choice anyway...) but when your AoE just CANNOT work without WW it's kinda wrong. Yes it's ok to allow to spam this via tactic. No, AoE spiral was bad it is still bad.

6. Make brutal assault ignore armor by default. There is too much requirements to play assault and this should help a little with this. And with "too much tactics and i somehow must slot more than i can" problem. Plus now you could actually use something to deal damage even if you're not specced for this.

7. Allow to use broadhead arrow in assault stance again. Why was this forbidden in the first place?

8. That would be nice to have something to help you survive in melee (or, rather, run away from melee). SH can knockback/buff his speed. SW should probably have this too (knockback OR speed buff, not both). Yes, as a SKILL, like SH, not as a tactic.
Last edited by Avernus on Mon Nov 21, 2022 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SuperStar
Posts: 403

Re: Basic Consensus For SW Fixes?

Post#37 » Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:20 pm

Imo just change the ranged sw/sh classes make them full buffer-debuffer class.

Give them the ability what the dps zealot/rp has aoe healdebuff armor break and aoe kd/snare/stagger but with low dmg (we dont want more solo god class)

In this way they will be welcomed to wb.

Msh and msw are fun.

Avernus
Posts: 321

Re: Basic Consensus For SW Fixes?

Post#38 » Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:22 pm

SuperStar wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:20 pm Imo just change the ranged sw/sh classes make them full buffer-debuffer class.

Give them the ability what the dps zealot/rp has aoe healdebuff armor break and aoe kd/snare/stagger but with low dmg (we dont want more solo god class)

In this way they will be welcomed to wb.

Msh and msw are fun.
Btw most of this suggestions basically mean "return SW to his state at Live". Was SW OP at live? Nope.
P.S. Do you know the diffenrence between mSH and mSW? Only one of them is welcomed in WB. Guess which one?

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SuperStar
Posts: 403

Re: Basic Consensus For SW Fixes?

Post#39 » Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:56 pm

Avernus wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:22 pm
SuperStar wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:20 pm Imo just change the ranged sw/sh classes make them full buffer-debuffer class.

Give them the ability what the dps zealot/rp has aoe healdebuff armor break and aoe kd/snare/stagger but with low dmg (we dont want more solo god class)

In this way they will be welcomed to wb.

Msh and msw are fun.
Btw most of this suggestions basically mean "return SW to his state at Live". Was SW OP at live? Nope.
P.S. Do you know the diffenrence between mSH and mSW? Only one of them is welcomed in WB. Guess which one?
One of them good at small scale other good at wb

Ps Sm better than bo small scale and wb too
Buff bork <3

Sever1n
Posts: 180

Re: Basic Consensus For SW Fixes?

Post#40 » Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:06 pm

Skirm sw works like bw, worst part of it is cocaine rotations that requires piano with 2dots, veng+ww barage spam, spirale/lileath. And u have zero armor and - 7k hp in radius of choppa pull. And no antisnare on top. And you need pick up targets with 3fps in dedtro zerg. While lion have 3dps buttons without target, armor/wounds, antisnare/pounce. Thats ehy no one want to take sw into strong setup. 5sec on sweeping don fo anything for asw in wb. It must be on zero cooldown, and still i dont see reason why u take asw into 24man, hat just do same work but better coz he have 2healdebuffs, sparm armoringore, stake. What have asw? Armor and basic copy of we/wh spell without executions. Waste of slot. And i forgot how skirms sw AP hungry, u litearlly go to zero ap in seconds so you forced to take refresh ap from fodges tactic. If devs really want to help sw they need to give normal armorshred on acid,like lions, make shadow sting usefull for scout, make zero cd on barrage or lileath and sweeping, give antisnare or squigs +30%speedboost panic button, and fix that 7k nonsense. For asw brutall assault must go without ww too. In all specs sw is a slave of WW, exept scout. But i dont believe its gonna happen. And this treads will go infinite

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