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Premade groups. The hell for new players.

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agemennon675
Posts: 504

Re: Premade groups. The hell for new players.

Post#61 » Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:36 pm

nocturnalguest wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 12:35 pm
Caduceus wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:13 am As someone with multiple rr80+ toons and probably thousands of hours played, I would actually confirm that the new player experience is broken. I cannot fault any new players for getting frustrated or quitting the game. If I didn't have my high renown toons and a strong team of players to play with, I would have 100% uninstalled by now. The game is unplayable otherwise.

I've talked about this issue a lot, but the main reason the game plays this way is because of the extraordinarily large defensive safety net provided by tanks and healers.

Putting this defensive safety net in place doesn't require much from the tanks and healers - they just need to press their buttons sensibly. To break through that same defensive safety net you need to execute very specific manoeuvres coordinated with your entire team and even then the margins to break through are incredibly small. Because of those tiny margins, small differences have a huge impact on whether or not a team is able to compete or not. One weak link in your team (team composition, gear level, player skill, etc.) is enough to be chanceless.

That's why scenarios in which one side doesn't score a single kill are so common.

This is not a healthy situation. Solutions might not be simple to find, but in my opinion it is up to the experienced players to get off their high horses and see how this situation is killing the new player influx, and thus stopping the game from developing a healthy playerbase.

In my opinion, either killing needs to be made easier, or tanking and healing needs to be a lot more of an active process in which players can make mistakes. Currently both roles (I've played both extensively) are very easy to play and keeping people protected is leagues easier than killing them as a DPS.
You have a very valid points here. You basically pinpoint the most crucial part of why this game is not newcomer friendly.

In a form what is considered competitive gameplay (6v6) anything is barely dying assuming teams are equally skilled because the burst window (the time when you can actually score a kill) is extremely tight, around 2-5 seconds you have to burst down focused target which requires alot of effort&synchronization from team, let alone a single party member.
In other form of what is considered competetive gameplay (24v24) things are a little bit better, cause at least something is dying but its barely possible to wipe the other team. Fights are absolutely endless because there are alot of ways to recover.

However i dont think its so hard to balance out. Why instead of what you propose just not increase some basic scalers&modifiers for all DPS classes and weapon DPS itself by ~20% as a starter point to test it out? We saw solo ranked matches then decent DPS guarded by decent tanks were dying thru guard cause other team had better composition and shield healer, is this the real goal - being able to kill not only in 2-5 seconds, but just by raw pressure? For me, why not. It's too complex at the moment for alot of people. 6men's that are heavily dominating other groups at very first and most important are doing their synchronized CC teamwork incredibly great, however it, of course, has nothing to do with random scenarios then things are explained with many other reasons.

Tanking and healing in this game is pretty cool i'd say. I wouldnt change that.
Killing through guard with just pressure is awful for the game, it requires no skill from the rest of the party and a few overperforming classes (hint: slayer) to execute. Simple, boring. Real talent is timing and syncronizing punt, kd on 2nd tank, healer stagger/silence and dps burst window at the same time as a party. That requires coordination not button smash and not that complicated for anyone that know immunities and few game mechanics
Destruction: 40-BG / 40-DoK / 40-Chosen / 37-Mara / 37/Sorc / 36-SH / 36-Choppa / 24-Shaman / 16-WE
Order: 40-SW / 40-SM / 40-WP / 40-WL / 39-Kotbs / 38-BW / 33-AM / 22-WH / 16-RP / 12-Slayer

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Balthazar92
Posts: 4

Re: Premade groups. The hell for new players.

Post#62 » Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:51 pm

Is way easy, premades (of not elite players) means nothing againts a Pug team of good players (not really matter that much about gear),with skill and knowledge of mechanics not only class role but sc objectives, really good chances to win, ppl t3 and t4 queuing sc with 0 knowledge about his class role or mechanics with lame green gear, and what is worst, 0 intention to gear up or investigaste how the Game suppose to be played (meta stuff, sc mechanics etc) ppl way too lazy or don't giving it , they are just used to do rvr wb zergs and trying to replicate that into sc, this isnt a CoD or overwatch Game to just log in and insta start a match, and for me, thats what's beautiful about mmorpgs the improvement from dedication you put into your character, the knowledge and skill ghatered from exp learned from time and tips from forums etc. Anyway most ppl at Pug sc are solo ego score players, 0 knowledge newbs, trolls, or even win traders, theres need to be a match making ranking, that way u don't get matched with the "dead weight" guys so often, at least. And a sc tactics culture to teach at least the basics on how sc must be played.

nocturnalguest
Posts: 490

Re: Premade groups. The hell for new players.

Post#63 » Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:09 am

agemennon675 wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:36 pm Killing through guard with just pressure is awful for the game, it requires no skill from the rest of the party and a few overperforming classes (hint: slayer) to execute. Simple, boring. Real talent is timing and syncronizing punt, kd on 2nd tank, healer stagger/silence and dps burst window at the same time as a party. That requires coordination not button smash and not that complicated for anyone that know immunities and few game mechanics
Well, fair enough, of course. However point made by Caduceus was the other thing - current game design is not noobfriendly at all and turns off alot of casual newcomers from other modern games (i guess casuals only cause i'd not call e.g. ESO or GW2 PvP easy), because they feel helpless and useless. The question is then, tho, do we need more casual population or not?
In regards to "not that complicated for anyone" here i disagree. There are few teams that totally dominating and difference between toptier 6mens and the others is really big, and its not about button smashing and knowing few game mechanics, comps or whatever, its about teamplay. To overcome it and work out same level of coordination one would need to form 6men and lose (and you definitely will, its impossible to just grab 6 good players and decently oppose e.g. Kar core group) to teams that are playing together for ages since live alot of times, thats pretty discouraging imo, hence you can only see sparrings in group ranked, sometimes even within same guild. Nobody wants to lose first 20-30 times (some more, some less, number is out of my ar*e) to gitgud, its no fun. Too much effort, it aint no esports. So by the time you will learn to punt/kd tanks, kd on focus target to prevent detaunt along with stagger/silence on healers synchronized in very narrow timestamp against ol' veteran teams who are expecting all that you most likely will have no groups to fight against at all. No motivation to play for toptier as they dont enjoy stomping same new teams, other new teams not forming because dont want to go thru all the stomping phase thus random people play sparrings with each other - is the current state of the scene.
So, to conclude, the real deal is does it needs to be like this or AoR/RoR should somehow meet modern casuality criteria of current PvP MMO's? ESO&GW2 as example, as a casual you will still do something PvP wise (yes, no chance to attend ESO 4x4 tournaments unless you do the same bloody path as in RoR but i speak generally), game design is way more enjoyable there for beginners, there is no feeling of absolute uselessness and helplessness like in RoR for them, in my opinion. Why? I think because reasons pointed out by Cadeceus - tanking&healing is strong, killing requires alot of coordination and teamplay, resulting in very low spectacularity of the gameplay (however actually playing good 6v6 fights is the best PvP experience currently possible in PvP MMO's i believe, its demanding, intense and cool).

Oh, and one more thing. Situation (pugs, premades, being stomped) is kinda helpless i suppose unless some design/balance swift, all those numerous whine posts on forums/ingame will not stop even if there would be alot of quality master "training" videos on youtube/twitch with voice comments of detailed step by step analysis of 6v6 matches or 24v24 GvGs (like in sc2 or any real esports game) cause all that is really required here in RoR to gitgud is playing with same (more or less) people over and over again to build coordination. Theory is simple here, but practice is pretty demanding. Taking out the feature of teamplay and coordination is definitely bad, how to adjust it properly is currently unknown, but if left as is there is no chance for population increase i believe.

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agemennon675
Posts: 504

Re: Premade groups. The hell for new players.

Post#64 » Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:12 am

nocturnalguest wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:09 am
agemennon675 wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:36 pm Killing through guard with just pressure is awful for the game, it requires no skill from the rest of the party and a few overperforming classes (hint: slayer) to execute. Simple, boring. Real talent is timing and syncronizing punt, kd on 2nd tank, healer stagger/silence and dps burst window at the same time as a party. That requires coordination not button smash and not that complicated for anyone that know immunities and few game mechanics
Well, fair enough, of course. However point made by Caduceus was the other thing - current game design is not noobfriendly at all and turns off alot of casual newcomers from other modern games (i guess casuals only cause i'd not call e.g. ESO or GW2 PvP easy), because they feel helpless and useless. The question is then, tho, do we need more casual population or not?
In regards to "not that complicated for anyone" here i disagree. There are few teams that totally dominating and difference between toptier 6mens and the others is really big, and its not about button smashing and knowing few game mechanics, comps or whatever, its about teamplay. To overcome it and work out same level of coordination one would need to form 6men and lose (and you definitely will, its impossible to just grab 6 good players and decently oppose e.g. Kar core group) to teams that are playing together for ages since live alot of times, thats pretty discouraging imo, hence you can only see sparrings in group ranked, sometimes even within same guild. Nobody wants to lose first 20-30 times (some more, some less, number is out of my ar*e) to gitgud, its no fun. Too much effort, it aint no esports. So by the time you will learn to punt/kd tanks, kd on focus target to prevent detaunt along with stagger/silence on healers synchronized in very narrow timestamp against ol' veteran teams who are expecting all that you most likely will have no groups to fight against at all. No motivation to play for toptier as they dont enjoy stomping same new teams, other new teams not forming because dont want to go thru all the stomping phase thus random people play sparrings with each other - is the current state of the scene.
So, to conclude, the real deal is does it needs to be like this or AoR/RoR should somehow meet modern casuality criteria of current PvP MMO's? ESO&GW2 as example, as a casual you will still do something PvP wise (yes, no chance to attend ESO 4x4 tournaments unless you do the same bloody path as in RoR but i speak generally), game design is way more enjoyable there for beginners, there is no feeling of absolute uselessness and helplessness like in RoR for them, in my opinion. Why? I think because reasons pointed out by Cadeceus - tanking&healing is strong, killing requires alot of coordination and teamplay, resulting in very low spectacularity of the gameplay (however actually playing good 6v6 fights is the best PvP experience currently possible in PvP MMO's i believe, its demanding, intense and cool).

Oh, and one more thing. Situation (pugs, premades, being stomped) is kinda helpless i suppose unless some design/balance swift, all those numerous whine posts on forums/ingame will not stop even if there would be alot of quality master "training" videos on youtube/twitch with voice comments of detailed step by step analysis of 6v6 matches or 24v24 GvGs (like in sc2 or any real esports game) cause all that is really required here in RoR to gitgud is playing with same (more or less) people over and over again to build coordination. Theory is simple here, but practice is pretty demanding. Taking out the feature of teamplay and coordination is definitely bad, how to adjust it properly is currently unknown, but if left as is there is no chance for population increase i believe.
Oh I agree with you just not on killing through guard part.
Destruction: 40-BG / 40-DoK / 40-Chosen / 37-Mara / 37/Sorc / 36-SH / 36-Choppa / 24-Shaman / 16-WE
Order: 40-SW / 40-SM / 40-WP / 40-WL / 39-Kotbs / 38-BW / 33-AM / 22-WH / 16-RP / 12-Slayer

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Cyrylius
Posts: 401

Re: Premade groups. The hell for new players.

Post#65 » Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:20 am

Killing through guard is bad if only one side can manage that. Maybe if it was a win condition for both sides the idea would work better. Make mitigating enough damage/ maximising your own and effective ways of resetting unfavorable fights important factors. But I think even then survivability would be ultimately the most important thing, and kill time would be long again.
RoR doesnt deserve being taken seriously.

nocturnalguest
Posts: 490

Re: Premade groups. The hell for new players.

Post#66 » Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:28 am

agemennon675 wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:12 am Oh I agree with you just not on killing through guard part.
You have a very fair point on this matter. It was unnecessary exaggeration from me. If DPS would be that strong so you can just pressure without CCing then it will kill the only feature this game brings PvP wise, strong need of teamplay and synchronization of actions from each team member. That is definitely awful as you pointed out. Maybe does exists some sweetspot for general DPS increase or another solution to widen the burst window. I dont know myself. But im not against increasing killing power for DPS classes so it will be wider than 2-5 seconds where you need to land a perfect morale drop on top. If leaving DPS as is (so it wont break oRvR or forts or something else) another thing could be increasing flytime of punts and (or) Z axis, atm best is chosen/kotbs with 5 seconds (of which first second is still within guard range) and on bg flytime for punt is faster than kotbs/chosen with much lower Z axis but you are thrown further away. Last i tried to count "time of unavailability" for bg punt it was more or less the same with chosen/kotbs considering you need to return from bigger distance.

Ashoris
Posts: 346

Re: Premade groups. The hell for new players.

Post#67 » Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:15 pm

first of all - this has derailed a LOT :)
We are now in discussing issues that centered around a certain skill level, but what you all fail to mention is that this Meta is also supported "by us" because most of our dps classes nowadays dont play "full glasscannon" but play tankier. We gladly accept that killing needs more effort for our own survivability (because it does not punish us as hard in case of a fail in gameplay).

the Problem for casual play/ Beginner start way earlier ... things that we consider basic ... but in reality are not.

Detaunt / Assist / tank punt ... is whats missing, core features of the game that are not used by roughly 80% of the Playerbase ...

there is no Way to balance this game to beginners without "dumbing it down"

one of the main problems i see is that PvE does not prepare you for pvp mechanics .. so if i had to suggest something i would try to make PvE more like PvP -


implement Punts in PvE - so people learn about different types of immunity
Give a clear chat message about the immunity "with name and effect"
implement Mobs that give dmg immunity to a bystander that needs to be punted away
Implement mobs that only get dmg if they are hit by more than 1 Player
Implement mobs that are immune to AoE spam
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