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Population Balance Suggestion

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Structured class balance suggestions belong in the Balance Proposal subforum. Class-related discussion in this section are considered as ongoing debates and ARE NOT reviewed for balance changes.
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Dobzse
Posts: 68

Population Balance Suggestion

Post#1 » Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:57 pm

Yesterday when City and Fort happened at the same time people simply put their hands up in both the city and the fort. There is no real reason to put up a fight in a 120 vs 43. So ofcourse this snowballed to something even worse. Old games such as Counter Strike/Quake/Unreal Tournament simply forced players to switch teams to balance out the teams. Now I know this sounds like a really harsh solution, and I am not suggesting that you should be forced to switch to the weaker/currently loosing side.
However with some fine tunning this could be a potential solution to have more fun. Easy battles are not fun even if they are rewarding(crests,currency,renown..etc.).

So my suggestion is there should be a dynamic system that is checking how many players are on each side of the realm.
Lets say you have 100 players on Destro side, then you can only join as Order. Once the sides equal then you can decide which side you join: if there is a 100/100 people on each side the next 20-40 people can decide which side they want to join. Ofcourse you can queue up to switch or even valunteer to switch side for some bonus loot/crests.

This does mean that you could not even do PVE even if you wanted to, however I think at this time we all know PVE is a nice thing but it is not the main driving force to play this game.
I'm hoping for some interesting discussion for this suggestion. Pro's and Con's all welcome. :)
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Dreadclaw - White Lion
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Templa
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Re: Population Balance Suggestion

Post#2 » Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:13 pm

Hypothetically speaking:
It would be enough to implement a system that reduces renown and medals gained through kills. Or impliment a system like in GW2 where you get more exp/drops if you switch sides to a better balanced server state. But that sounds really hard to implement, so the first idea would probably be easier. Many established guilds have x-realm capabilities AND are not against switching sides. So that WOULD be the easiest solution, that will still open up saltmines. The really bad population topics mostly pop up during NA times where the population dies down to a mediocre level in terms of enjoyability.
It's pretty much in the hands of the player how balanced the game is, let's say 80% plays destro, than that's how it is and Order will have no fun/chance to siege in lakes. It's the responsability of the player to decide if they want to switch sides or not. The system can only give so much incentive, because if one does not want to play Order and can't login on Destro they won't login at all, right?
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Dobzse
Posts: 68

Re: Population Balance Suggestion

Post#3 » Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:55 pm

Templa wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:13 pm Hypothetically speaking:
It would be enough to implement a system that reduces renown and medals gained through kills. Or impliment a system like in GW2 where you get more exp/drops if you switch sides to a better balanced server state. But that sounds really hard to implement, so the first idea would probably be easier. Many established guilds have x-realm capabilities AND are not against switching sides. So that WOULD be the easiest solution, that will still open up saltmines. The really bad population topics mostly pop up during NA times where the population dies down to a mediocre level in terms of enjoyability.
It's pretty much in the hands of the player how balanced the game is, let's say 80% plays destro, than that's how it is and Order will have no fun/chance to siege in lakes. It's the responsability of the player to decide if they want to switch sides or not. The system can only give so much incentive, because if one does not want to play Order and can't login on Destro they won't login at all, right?
So would you rather play in empty rvr lakes where nobody bothers to fight back ? It's not like you are being told you can't play the game, you just have to play on the other side. Let's say you enter this Red/Blue team game where you have 10 Red players and only 1 Blue. Nobody is either forcing or telling Red team has to switch, how long will the player in the Blue team will play the game? maybe 5-10 deaths ? or he does not even join at all seeing that the game is rigged because it does not force the teams to balance out. I'm pretty sure it is a simple game design question and we all know the correct answer. But giving this decision to the players hand is probably not a quality of life answer.
Dreadnari - Chosen
Chuckz - BlackOrc
Xalzius - Magus
Dreadclaw - White Lion
Boombastic - Engineer
Dobzse - Knight of the Blazing Sun

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inoeth
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Posts: 513

Re: Population Balance Suggestion

Post#4 » Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:34 pm

nerf rampage and balance will naturally even out again

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Templa
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Re: Population Balance Suggestion

Post#5 » Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:44 pm

inoeth wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:34 pm nerf rampage and balance will naturally even out again
nerf irelia
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fuzzbunny
Posts: 16

Re: Population Balance Suggestion

Post#6 » Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:46 pm

Dobzse wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:55 pm
Templa wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:13 pm Hypothetically speaking:
It would be enough to implement a system that reduces renown and medals gained through kills. Or impliment a system like in GW2 where you get more exp/drops if you switch sides to a better balanced server state. But that sounds really hard to implement, so the first idea would probably be easier. Many established guilds have x-realm capabilities AND are not against switching sides. So that WOULD be the easiest solution, that will still open up saltmines. The really bad population topics mostly pop up during NA times where the population dies down to a mediocre level in terms of enjoyability.
It's pretty much in the hands of the player how balanced the game is, let's say 80% plays destro, than that's how it is and Order will have no fun/chance to siege in lakes. It's the responsability of the player to decide if they want to switch sides or not. The system can only give so much incentive, because if one does not want to play Order and can't login on Destro they won't login at all, right?
So would you rather play in empty rvr lakes where nobody bothers to fight back ? It's not like you are being told you can't play the game, you just have to play on the other side. Let's say you enter this Red/Blue team game where you have 10 Red players and only 1 Blue. Nobody is either forcing or telling Red team has to switch, how long will the player in the Blue team will play the game? maybe 5-10 deaths ? or he does not even join at all seeing that the game is rigged because it does not force the teams to balance out. I'm pretty sure it is a simple game design question and we all know the correct answer. But giving this decision to the players hand is probably not a quality of life answer.
I think your idea is a good one as it promotes a fair and balanced experience for all players. My question is how would you implement something like this? Ofcourse, we can look to other games for examples of how to solve the problem. My main concern is that not all of them are fully translatable to an MMORPG. let's consider a couple of examples:

In games like that feature mirrored teams like unreal tournament, quake, and Halo, having someone switch sides to balance out the teams isn't much of a issue because there is no learning curve. Yeah it might be a little annoying but it doesn't dramatically change the gameplay experience. In warhammer online, classes aren't identical. You can't easily switch teams because you would have to relearn / rebind abilities. Let's consider a RR80 marauder being switched over to the order side. Firstly, which class would they end up being switched to? Would they remain the same class or would they switch over to an order counterpart?

Another concern is the game itself is heavily reliant on teamwork and team compositions. Swapping over a lone or random group of players wouldn't necessarily balance the teams as you need coordination and team comp as well. The obvious solution would be to balance groups of people as opposed to individual, random players but that solves only one issue.

What I would like to see is a third playable faction that functions as team balancing mercenaries. They have this feature in the game planetside 2 and it works really well. Not only does this team of mercenaries play on the side of whatever faction is under populated, they are stronger and get access to a bunch of rewards. I believe something like this would work for warhammer's lore. However, it would require creating new classes / new races as certain existing races would never work with the order and vice versa.

Ultimately, I do like the idea of players naturally balancing out sides. I would happily make an order character to play while they were under populated. It certainly beats waiting in queue forever. However, I don't have the time to level up another character. It has to be incentivized with faster renown, experience, and currency rates. It's the only way I'd ever be able to reasonably level up a character for the opposing faction.

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Dobzse
Posts: 68

Re: Population Balance Suggestion

Post#7 » Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:56 pm

fuzzbunny wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:46 pm
Dobzse wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:55 pm
Templa wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:13 pm Hypothetically speaking:
It would be enough to implement a system that reduces renown and medals gained through kills. Or impliment a system like in GW2 where you get more exp/drops if you switch sides to a better balanced server state. But that sounds really hard to implement, so the first idea would probably be easier. Many established guilds have x-realm capabilities AND are not against switching sides. So that WOULD be the easiest solution, that will still open up saltmines. The really bad population topics mostly pop up during NA times where the population dies down to a mediocre level in terms of enjoyability.
It's pretty much in the hands of the player how balanced the game is, let's say 80% plays destro, than that's how it is and Order will have no fun/chance to siege in lakes. It's the responsability of the player to decide if they want to switch sides or not. The system can only give so much incentive, because if one does not want to play Order and can't login on Destro they won't login at all, right?
So would you rather play in empty rvr lakes where nobody bothers to fight back ? It's not like you are being told you can't play the game, you just have to play on the other side. Let's say you enter this Red/Blue team game where you have 10 Red players and only 1 Blue. Nobody is either forcing or telling Red team has to switch, how long will the player in the Blue team will play the game? maybe 5-10 deaths ? or he does not even join at all seeing that the game is rigged because it does not force the teams to balance out. I'm pretty sure it is a simple game design question and we all know the correct answer. But giving this decision to the players hand is probably not a quality of life answer.
I think your idea is a good one as it promotes a fair and balanced experience for all players. My question is how would you implement something like this? Ofcourse, we can look to other games for examples of how to solve the problem. My main concern is that not all of them are fully translatable to an MMORPG. let's consider a couple of examples:

In games like that feature mirrored teams like unreal tournament, quake, and Halo, having someone switch sides to balance out the teams isn't much of a issue because there is no learning curve. Yeah it might be a little annoying but it doesn't dramatically change the gameplay experience. In warhammer online, classes aren't identical. You can't easily switch teams because you would have to relearn / rebind abilities. Let's consider a RR80 marauder being switched over to the order side. Firstly, which class would they end up being switched to? Would they remain the same class or would they switch over to an order counterpart?

Another concern is the game itself is heavily reliant on teamwork and team compositions. Swapping over a lone or random group of players wouldn't necessarily balance the teams as you need coordination and team comp as well. The obvious solution would be to balance groups of people as opposed to individual, random players but that solves only one issue.

What I would like to see is a third playable faction that functions as team balancing mercenaries. They have this feature in the game planetside 2 and it works really well. Not only does this team of mercenaries play on the side of whatever faction is under populated, they are stronger and get access to a bunch of rewards. I believe something like this would work for warhammer's lore. However, it would require creating new classes / new races as certain existing races would never work with the order and vice versa.

Ultimately, I do like the idea of players naturally balancing out sides. I would happily make an order character to play while they were under populated. It certainly beats waiting in queue forever. However, I don't have the time to level up another character. It has to be incentivized with faster renown, experience, and currency rates. It's the only way I'd ever be able to reasonably level up a character for the opposing faction.
As all changes this one is drastically changing your experience to play the game. Eventually you will be forced to play a faction that you don't like as much as your "main" character. I agree on the team composition part, but when you look at games where team composition matters the most. 2-2-2 players either accept that they must play a tank/healer because that's what their team needs or they can decide to be selfish and play whatever archtype they like to play.
Of course in an MMO this is even more complex because let's say you don't have that certain character leveled up. So yes at the beginning this is going to be very difficult, however eventually everyone will have a lvl 16+ character which they can join in T4 action. And to be honest getting to lvl 16+ isnt that big of a deal with rested bonus etc. You can get there with playing every once and then. OR even it could be possible that you are able to create a lvl 16+ character if you wish to do so with some gear on. This would help to mitigate this issue. Bolster is already there so thats not a problem for the main part when you play the game.
Dreadnari - Chosen
Chuckz - BlackOrc
Xalzius - Magus
Dreadclaw - White Lion
Boombastic - Engineer
Dobzse - Knight of the Blazing Sun

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Dobzse
Posts: 68

Re: Population Balance Suggestion

Post#8 » Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:59 pm

I think the third faction thing needs so much resource its really hard to justify it.
This game needs simple and effective fixes, fixes that are proven to be worthy to consider. I think this one is something that is not so complex to implement but it could be a life safer in terms of how fun the game is at prime time.
Dreadnari - Chosen
Chuckz - BlackOrc
Xalzius - Magus
Dreadclaw - White Lion
Boombastic - Engineer
Dobzse - Knight of the Blazing Sun

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Nameless
Posts: 1141

Re: Population Balance Suggestion

Post#9 » Wed Feb 01, 2023 4:05 pm

Devs could do 3rd fraction - mercenaries which at certain population disparity could be joined by characters of one of the realms.
That fraction could be for itself and enemy to all or allied with the underdog.
Not so hard or impossible to do and there is a precedent where destro allied with orders (ranked pvp)
But overall some stable balance and bug fixing is more important at the moment
Mostly harmless

K8P & Norn - guild Orz

gyps
Posts: 116

Re: Population Balance Suggestion

Post#10 » Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:23 pm

Nameless wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 4:05 pm Devs could do 3rd fraction - mercenaries which at certain population disparity could be joined by characters of one of the realms.
That fraction could be for itself and enemy to all or allied with the underdog.
Not so hard or impossible to do and there is a precedent where destro allied with orders (ranked pvp)
But overall some stable balance and bug fixing is more important at the moment
Call it "Renegades and Heretics" and create the third faction merged with every single crazy enough rr100+ player who seeks power over their emperor or chaos god, they don't care about glory of their original factions they just want to see the world burn in fire and they sitting on top of it!

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