Scenario surrender change

[bw10]

the most fun ive had in this game, consistently over the years was... big rvr in t1 nordland. nothing comes close that, with both sides constantly pushing each other in other camps cannons range. i wish there was a way to lock xp at 15 *sighs*

[Everdin]

i'll give the solution for your pain: play as premade. Next thread...

What a terrible take. First of all you basically want to force people to play a certain way or leave/get farmed which is just bad game design. Any game that does this just dies off because most players don't like to be limited. Worse even if people would follow this trash advice you basically get ranked within regular scs. Really popular is it? All premades playing their own mode, right? Right?

Ranked didn't fold because of any mechanic issue. It died out because the environment was so toxic.

Ranked proved that people don't want fair fights, they want to farm pugs for easy wins.

The people who want to get rid of surrender are the ones who want to force pugs to line up and be farmed all day with no chance of success.

Exactly this. Their specially desinged gamemode even with highly improved rewards was so boring that nobody cared. What do the premades do instead? Farm pugs all day long, usually call it a day if a better premade logs in. This game is the biggest snoozefest ever for structured pvp. It's boring to watch and play. When equally matched almost nothing happens ever and when at a slight disadvantage you get obliterated. You could just as easy watch paint dry.

They are further the same people loving the barriers, removal of guards and rr when killed by guards that are still around in some scs. It happens often enough that premades have tanks that jump in to kick people out of guarded spawns cause they have nothing to loose and more rr to gain. Just the worst changes ever regarding scs. The gamemode changed from being my main gamemode on live to yeah not playing that.

I don't know who came up with implementing barriers like this but it's just bad. You loose the fight initially and are forced to regroup. Nope, better get famred cause there is no way to retreat. You want to go back into action after they farmed you all. Yeah I don't think so. The already winning team is right in front of the barrier so kiting is not a real option and half your team has given up anyways.
You could exit alone on the other side but to gain what exactly? Being farmed after cause you left that side alone or at best with less numbers. If you all move to the other exit they can just follow you. Like the enemy sees your movements too. Why would you even allow them to look through the barrier. It is just bad all around. I don't know why you wouldn't instead give the losing team an advantage to have a fighting chance. Instead you get crippled further.

You know what scs are really fun? When both sides have 0 or few healers and no tanks. Suddently the game is actually fun as on both sides you have people dying constantly. Sure with premades on one side you'd have one side crushing the other but they would still die too and not be this invulnerable wrecking ball that is not worth to even try to fight. I'd love to have event scs that consist of only dps and this is comming from a dps heal main. I'd happily try that out, I think it would be super fun and you'd have not much reason to surrender ever as you can gain plenty of rr. Tbh % based dmg stacking reductions and strong healing is way too powerful in this game which is causing this huge rift between structered groups and pugs.

No doubt, barriers are trash, you can't snipe out enemys hiding in the warcamps anymore...

Regarding the rest, you say it, half of the team give up after the first fight (best is the people rush in before people were gathered and then call it a surrender because the two dps were not able to kill 14 enemys bevor the rest joins in).

And while answering the first quote you say people should not be forced to have a certain playstyle, you want to exclude healers and tanks from a scenario, great idea! Guess what? This would be the biggest meatgrinder of all, because the better coordinated/geard team would smash the sh.. out of their enemys.

Regarding ranked, I'm getting tired of explaining this to people who have no clue what happens outside of their snowflake -protect me from all evil- bubble. Nobody is forced to play something he don't want:

1. you have ranked for high geard, bis-equipt, well optimized teams
2. you have discordant for all the lone-wolfs out there
3. you have normal sc for all in between

The biggest part of the game are social people who love to play with friends, family, guildmates. Fathers, Mothers, Children, Grandfathers whoever love to spare time with some others and...yea, maybe playing some SC together.
The gap between these guys and a top tier ranked team is far bigger then the gap between a pug team and an ordinary guild-group.

Most of the people would love to see good fights between 2 x 2/2/2 groups even if they loose.

The most ranked teams would love to play against other ranked teams.

The only people that want an automatic win are some snowflakes not accepting that queing for a team based part of the game should at least put a little effort in playing as team. If you join the que for normal sc, learn to act as a team and the most premades aren't that big of a deal - you maybe would loose, but you could give them a fight.

In every other multiplayer game I played you have to put effort in it and learn to play together. If you are not able to maintain a basic form of organization not matter if you que alone with 11 strangers or as team, the smallest reason you loose is the premade on the other side.

[rejndjer]

The biggest part of the game are social people who love to play with friends, family, guildmates. Fathers, Mothers, Children, Grandfathers whoever love to spare time with some others and...yea, maybe playing some SC together.
The gap between these guys and a top tier ranked team is far bigger then the gap between a pug team and an ordinary guild-group.

Most of the people would love to see good fights between 2 x 2/2/2 groups even if they loose.

The most ranked teams would love to play against other ranked teams.

The only people that want an automatic win are some snowflakes not accepting that queing for a team based part of the game should at least put a little effort in playing as team. If you join the que for normal sc, learn to act as a team and the most premades aren't that big of a deal - you maybe would loose, but you could give them a fight.

In every other multiplayer game I played you have to put effort in it and learn to play together. If you are not able to maintain a basic form of organization not matter if you que alone with 11 strangers or as team, the smallest reason you loose is the premade on the other side.

omg you are so delusional that any kind of discussion with you makes 0 sense. biggest part of this game are not social people. not friends, not family. what is a "good fights between 2 x 2/2/2 groups"? if these fights are so good then why is ranked dead 99% of time? you just repeat all the same bullcrap that you profesional ror players repeat every time someone trys to make scenarios fun or suggests that they have been purposely changed so that premade can more easily farm non-premade. and the thing that triggers you most of all is when someone (100% truthfully) suggests that all you ror pro players want is - that. farming pugs. you have 0 integrity in eyes of anyone who has ever played any kind of competitive online game (dota, starcraft, old skul shooters...). and stop calling other people snowflakes, projection is a bad drug.

p.s. i agree with everything valfaros said, probably best post i've read on this forum.

[Nameless]

No doubt, barriers are trash, you can't snipe out enemys hiding in the warcamps anymore...

Oh my, why ppl keep using this argument to defend the use of barriers. Ppl dont have purpuse of being at enemy wc. There is objective at each scen that has nothing to do with enemy wc.
Just do it, only purpose to go to enemy wc is to farm and spawn camp. So the most intuitive thing is to provide save spot for weaker side so they try to put a fight. And if engi snipe you behind guards is your problem being there instead doing scen objectives. Your team has full map control so move...

[Everdin]

No doubt, barriers are trash, you can't snipe out enemys hiding in the warcamps anymore...

Oh my, why ppl keep using this argument to defend the use of barriers. Ppl dont have purpuse of being at enemy wc. There is objective at each scen that has nothing to do with enemy wc.
Just do it, only purpose to go to enemy wc is to farm and spawn camp. So the most intuitive thing is to provide save spot for weaker side so they try to put a fight. And if engi snipe you behind guards is your problem being there instead doing scen objectives. Your team has full map control so move...

No irony from my side, I hate barrieres, good working guards and both sides profit

[Everdin]

The biggest part of the game are social people who love to play with friends, family, guildmates. Fathers, Mothers, Children, Grandfathers whoever love to spare time with some others and...yea, maybe playing some SC together.
The gap between these guys and a top tier ranked team is far bigger then the gap between a pug team and an ordinary guild-group.

Most of the people would love to see good fights between 2 x 2/2/2 groups even if they loose.

The most ranked teams would love to play against other ranked teams.

The only people that want an automatic win are some snowflakes not accepting that queing for a team based part of the game should at least put a little effort in playing as team. If you join the que for normal sc, learn to act as a team and the most premades aren't that big of a deal - you maybe would loose, but you could give them a fight.

In every other multiplayer game I played you have to put effort in it and learn to play together. If you are not able to maintain a basic form of organization not matter if you que alone with 11 strangers or as team, the smallest reason you loose is the premade on the other side.

omg you are so delusional that any kind of discussion with you makes 0 sense. biggest part of this game are not social people. not friends, not family. what is a "good fights between 2 x 2/2/2 groups"? if these fights are so good then why is ranked dead 99% of time? you just repeat all the same bullcrap that you profesional ror players repeat every time someone trys to make scenarios fun or suggests that they have been purposely changed so that premade can more easily farm non-premade. and the thing that triggers you most of all is when someone (100% truthfully) suggests that all you ror pro players want is - that. farming pugs. you have 0 integrity in eyes of anyone who has ever played any kind of competitive online game (dota, starcraft, old skul shooters...). and stop calling other people snowflakes, projection is a bad drug.

p.s. i agree with everything valfaros said, probably best post i've read on this forum.

I'm not a profesional ror player, don't get me wrong, I would love to get paid for it, but seriously, the game is not popular enogh to earn a living from it...

I just explained that there is a difference between the target audience for ranked, and the target audience for normal sc, something you fail to understand because everyone who put a little bit effort in this game is just evil for doing exactly that. I have zero intention in playing ranked competitive and measuring myself with others to brag with my mmr, I want to have fun in this game, I want to play with my guild in an closed, not zergy envoirement, if there are other guildgroups/lfg-groups/whatever kind of premade, fine, if there are solos that failed to que for discordant, I don't give a f... . If they die over and over, it's not my fault.

There is no benefit for us from having people like you in a SC, failling to do basic things a team based game needs on our own side and hiding crying in a corner if they wipe on the enemy side. Killing 8 people in the first fight and waiting for surrender the next minutes isn't really funny (there are some exceptions, seeing you in a SC could be at least a little bit funny).

I don't complain about other groups that could be successful in ranked queing for normal sc, if they are better then us, we may lose, but at least we try to give them a fight. So tell me, where do I project beeing a snowflake?

[Ashoris]

omg you are so delusional that any kind of discussion with you makes 0 sense. biggest part of this game are not social people. not friends, not family. what is a "good fights between 2 x 2/2/2 groups"? if these fights are so good then why is ranked dead 99% of time? you just repeat all the same bullcrap that you profesional ror players repeat every time someone trys to make scenarios fun or suggests that they have been purposely changed so that premade can more easily farm non-premade. and the thing that triggers you most of all is when someone (100% truthfully) suggests that all you ror pro players want is - that. farming pugs. you have 0 integrity in eyes of anyone who has ever played any kind of competitive online game (dota, starcraft, old skul shooters...). and stop calling other people snowflakes, projection is a bad drug.

I am pretty sure Everdin plays this game pretty casual - and is in no way the person you think.
Thats what he tries to explain to you, there are people who play this game "casually" but not always alone (often you can find Everdin playing solo on his SW ).

He simply sees some of the issues mentioned different than you.


the classic excample would be such a SC where after 4 min you get a surrender vote because the group composition looks like this
AM SL WL WH BW SW and a 2nd grp WP RP WP Kobs IB SM every dps died once ... the healer and the tanks survived for quite some time but couldnt kil something !
instead of building 2 valid grps with : SL WL Kobs IB WP RP and WH SW BW SM WP AM people would just give up.

asking for a difficult, subpar technical solution - for something that the community could fix with minimal effort, is just wrong

Thats the main difference - Some people think most of the issues can be fixed by the community itself while other people think a "magical" technical solution will solve the Problem.

[Avernus]

the classic excample would be such a SC where after 4 min you get a surrender vote because the group composition looks like this
AM SL WL WH BW SW and a 2nd grp WP RP WP Kobs IB SM every dps died once ... the healer and the tanks survived for quite some time but couldnt kil something !
instead of building 2 valid grps with : SL WL Kobs IB WP RP and WH SW BW SM WP AM people would just give up.

asking for a difficult, subpar technical solution - for something that the community could fix with minimal effort, is just wrong

Thats the main difference - Some people think most of the issues can be fixed by the community itself while other people think a "magical" technical solution will solve the Problem.

Its not that unreasonable to surrender in this situation. The thing is, even if you do ask people to fix this groups, they are usually ignore your call because they don't care/don't know how to change your sc group/don't read chat/etc.

You ask them once, twice...and your team just ignores you while keep on feeding the enemy team.

So, yeah, if you see a setup like this, you will try (at best!) once to do something. Your team is wiped and there is still no reaction? Indeed, surrender is usually the best thing you can do (unless you like to fight till the last - best sort of the enemy when you are leveling...).

[Ashoris]

Its not that unreasonable to surrender in this situation. The thing is, even if you do ask people to fix this groups, they are usually ignore your call because they don't care/don't know how to change your sc group/don't read chat/etc.
You ask them once, twice...and your team just ignores you while keep on feeding the enemy team.
So, yeah, if you see a setup like this, you will try (at best!) once to do something. Your team is wiped and there is still no reaction? Indeed, surrender is usually the best thing you can do (unless you like to fight till the last - best sort of the enemy when you are leveling...).

I dont disagree with you - but like you described its a community issue not a development issue.

[Valfaros]

asking for a difficult, subpar technical solution - for something that the community could fix with minimal effort, is just wrong

Thats the main difference - Some people think most of the issues can be fixed by the community itself while other people think a "magical" technical solution will solve the Problem.

I don't know what to say if you actually believe it is easier to fix how people act than to change the gamedesign. I am fairly sure there there isn't such a thing as the community can fix it. It is just not how people work.

The argument just makes 0 sense. How do you even address the community? Most will never read the forum or any other source. The major playerbase of any game does not care what we write here. They just play within the constraints the game gives you.

If a community is friendly and works as a team it is almost always because the gamedesign promotes it. It is one of the major key points within gamedesign to lead the player on the correct path.

You can **** onto randoms for not forming a propper team all you want but they won't change if the game doesn't make it very easy and rewarding. I think dungeonfinders in other games are a good example of this. People who would never form a group would do dungeons as a team.

As for the ror tactic, clearly the stick "punish rdms as much as possible" does not work. Pugs have been getting farmed for years and it didn't change how they act. So as for the community can fix it, it can't. The only thing it did is make scs less popular and shift people to either leave or into orvr. The surrender option makes this rather clear. People don't enjoy themselves, so instead wasting more time they leave. You can further hinder people from surrendering but honestly it will just make more people not care about scs. I certainly don't care much anymore about scs. They are too often just not fun so why bother.