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Dok and WP Shields giving running speed

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Mvl130
Posts: 28

Re: Dok and WP Shields giving running speed

Post#21 » Sun May 28, 2023 7:31 pm

Oh and to reply to what Detangler was saying on top of the previous page, organized warbands or roam parties are never specifically asking for shield dok or shield wp, and when I see them asking for a healer and I send a pm "im shield dok" "im shield wp", i get no answer and no invite most of the time. Even for pve I was refused in a group for using that spec

So you're just inventing this supposed niche organized playstile where shield healers are really asked for, and it doesn't exist. You're talking about some ranked parties and this game mode is purely dead for over a year now. The reality is that I have to make my own roam parties all the time.

Like I said, pretty much any healing priest or dok is going to run with book/chalice because it has 0 drawback. So Detangler you're saying that the drawback is the absence of damage, but as a shield healer you do about the same amount of damage as a two handed tank and only if you have a guard on you, otherwise you just die. Any group prefers a backline healer and a guarded choppa/slayer, don't start pretending it's not the case.

So your idea that buffing the proc from this shield is going to dramatically unbalance the game and make chalice/book healers very average is pure invention, the only thing that's gonna change is that in scenarios or while roaming shield healers will sometimes be able to reach a shadow warrior or a squig, or to move out outside the melee train nucking area, that's about it

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Mvl130
Posts: 28

Re: Dok and WP Shields giving running speed

Post#22 » Sun May 28, 2023 7:41 pm

Detangler wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:18 pm

That's not sarcasm, that's contempt for a poorly thought out balance suggestion. Sarcasm would be more like "Wow, so you want to have zero drawbacks to shield dok/wp, great idea!"


Why are you solo attacking a shaman? You should be on the melee assist train with a tank applying their 40% snare with 100% uptime. Poor target selection is a player problem, not a class balance issue.
Yeah you can play all you want with words, you just using the usual pseudo-elitist and condescending attitude of the average forumer who considers the game balance to be perfectly fine and that any issue that might be encountered repeatidly is just a player issue. This forum is filled with your kind.

I'm actually explaining how snaring shamans as a warrior-priest makes them run faster, and here you are pretending that there's nothing wrong with that, and that it's actually my fault because I'm just supposed to pretend that shamans do not exist, as if it was a normal way to play the game. This is ridiculous :lol:
Last edited by Mvl130 on Sun May 28, 2023 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mvl130
Posts: 28

Re: Dok and WP Shields giving running speed

Post#23 » Sun May 28, 2023 7:42 pm

yoluigi wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:26 pm You should check my latest Wp shield showcase it's pretty strong sure some class might be better in certain situation but still very good. The 2h yes it's alot harder to play
Okay I'm gonna check on that

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Detangler
Posts: 986

Re: Dok and WP Shields giving running speed

Post#24 » Sun May 28, 2023 8:09 pm

Mvl130 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:41 pm
Detangler wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:18 pm

That's not sarcasm, that's contempt for a poorly thought out balance suggestion. Sarcasm would be more like "Wow, so you want to have zero drawbacks to shield dok/wp, great idea!"


Why are you solo attacking a shaman? You should be on the melee assist train with a tank applying their 40% snare with 100% uptime. Poor target selection is a player problem, not a class balance issue.
Yeah you can play all you want with words, you just using the usual pseudo-elitist and condescending attitude of the average forumer who considers the game balance to be perfectly fine and that any issue that might be encountered repeatidly is just a player issue. This forum is filled with your kind.

I'm actually explaining how snaring shamans as a warrior-priest makes them run faster, and here you are pretending that there's nothing wrong with that, and that it's actually my fault because I'm just supposed to pretend that shamans do not exist, as if it was a normal way to play the game. This is ridiculous :lol:
Speaking truth about grammatical choices is not condescending. The benefit of shield spec is to apply assist damage on targets while continually healing on every cooldown - something book/chalice dok can't do without running out of resources. I'm not ignoring the existence of shamans. Attacking a shaman solo away from your assist train both negates the benefit of applying assist damage on your target and knowingly gives the shaman a chance to proc a short term speed buff - so why do that?

I'm sorry you have a hard time finding groups. Some people don't know how to fit shield spec into groups, and they are worse off for it.

I shudder at the thought of a buffed Yoluigi vid.. dude already shreds opponents as is ...
Detangler and alts - 84 Chosen, other 40s - DoK, Zealot, SH, WE, BG, BO
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Tangler and alts - 8X IB, other 40s - RP, SM
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BluIzLucky
Posts: 691

Re: Dok and WP Shields giving running speed

Post#25 » Sun May 28, 2023 8:34 pm

Mvl130 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:41 pm
Yeah you can play all you want with words, you just using the usual pseudo-elitist and condescending attitude of the average forumer who considers the game balance to be perfectly fine and that any issue that might be encountered repeatidly is just a player issue. This forum is filled with your kind.

You can post on the Balance Proposal subforum to avoid dealing with the avg forumer:
posting.php?mode=post&f=95

Good luck :)
SM - Arhalien +80 | AM - Shaheena +80
ZL - Wildera +70 | BG - Blackcrow +70

Mvl130
Posts: 28

Re: Dok and WP Shields giving running speed

Post#26 » Sun May 28, 2023 8:46 pm

BluIzLucky wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:34 pm
Mvl130 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:41 pm
Yeah you can play all you want with words, you just using the usual pseudo-elitist and condescending attitude of the average forumer who considers the game balance to be perfectly fine and that any issue that might be encountered repeatidly is just a player issue. This forum is filled with your kind.

You can post on the Balance Proposal subforum to avoid dealing with the avg forumer:
posting.php?mode=post&f=95

Good luck :)

I didnt know about that subforum, thank you for the link

Edit - oh no actually on the rules of this subforum it's written : "We do not take item procs and set bonuses into consideration for class balance." Too bad :cry:

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Omegus
Posts: 1373

Re: Dok and WP Shields giving running speed

Post#27 » Sun May 28, 2023 10:46 pm

I was wondering how quickly this was going to turn into a "I got kited by a Shaman" thread.
Mvl130 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 9:59 amShamans have a free tactic that makes them run 30% faster for 5 seconds, 25% chance of proc on being hit, every 10 seconds, and they can cast healing/damaging spells without loosing that (and they are a ranged class that does not have to stop to cast its spells).
Goblins do, not just Shamans. For Shamans, it allows them to cast HoTs and DoTs and the very limited selection of instant-cast (or cast-on-move) abilities. Is this all a Shaman needs to kite and win in 1v1s? Yes, but once you scale up from that the tactic is less useful as Shamans in larger-scale play cannot just HoT and DoT their way to victory.
But a 12% chance to proc a 20% running speed for a melee healer equipped with a specific shield is "stupidly strong" ?
If you look at live and a little bit on ROR, you will see that speed boosts and procs VERY quickly become meta when they can be active while still attacking. Is the current proc very niche? Yes absolutely, but your suggestion would make it an auto-take for melee WP and likely other classes who get access to the proc. My Zealot would love to be able to run around with +20% speed spamming Flash of Chaos as it has the same proc on an off-hand. Does it *need* that? God no.

Reworking the proc to be something else entirely would IMO be a better proposal to give a new useful proc, as there is almost no middle ground on speed procs being useless and OP. History has proven that repeatedly with this game.
Can you tell me Detangler what are the drawbacks of playing chalice/book compared to shield ? You heal more, you die less, it works in any situation, you don't have to worry about being kited, your healing isnt negated by parry/block stacking and absorb effects on targets, tanks can save their guard for a melee damage dealer... The only reason to play shield is because you find it less boring than backline healing.
The reason to play melee heal is because you are contributing additional damage to the assist train while also being able to heal everyone around it (or switch between other types of healing, such as group or AOE). As fights get bigger in size, the need for a DoK/WP to apply additional single-target pressure becomes less and less, much like lifetaps in general are pretty useless outside of very small-scale fights (before anyone mentions FotG/EoV - that ability is amazing because it heals so much even when doing terrible damage with it and might as well be considered a heal that does a bit of damage too).

For ORvR vs ranged kite groups being a melee healer is a liability, but then being melee in general is a liability vs ranged kite groups.

The situation becomes much better for PvE (shield DoK was meta for speed-running dungeons at one point for the extra damage output) and for scenarios where you can't be kited forever, and if a group wants to try and kite you then they give up the objective. The maps are also far smaller and more cluttered to prevent excessive kiting.
It's actually so easy to play book/chalice that pretty much any healing warrior-priest or DoK runs that spec, and that warbands or 6men tryharding kick you if you use a shield because they find it inconsistent, and it's inconsistent because of how easy it is to kite (among many other things I just listed). But making a shield functionnal would remove the "only" drawback from the spec according to the enlightened Detangler
The other reason WBs kick melee healers (as well as "DPS" Shamans/AMs) is because if you're trying to join a warband as a melee healer it's a sign you have no idea when to pick what spec for your class :D.

Pretty much every healer plays pure ranged heal spec for WBs because with those numbers of players what the warband needs is huge non-stop healing constantly to stay alive, not 1 extra person on the melee assist when 8 dedicated DPS players can already spike down targets. Additionally, it's the pure heal spec of a healer class so people who want to play a pure healer (seemingly most people who pick a healer) will want to use that spec.
if you play with this shield you can spend 30 seconds in melee without having a single proc from it, so this idea that you're all the time sped up is actually wrong, the reason for that is that you block/parry attacks and when it occurs it cannot triggers this effect.
Sounds like a lot of dumb players hitting you from the front rather than the back...
Shamans are a range class so I don't see why they should have more chances to proc a higher bonus running speed that does not break upon using abilities, while having aoe snares and punts, and no need to stay grounded to cast abilities on top of that. Their need for mobility is lower because they have 125ft range on their abilities, as a shield healer you have 5ft. Also they do not block/parry attacks so their tactic is triggered as soon as they are focused. It's actually funny to see you complain about that shield bonus while at the same time writing that shamans tactic is not so bad
Where did you get 125ft range on Shamans from? Unless you're taking the average of the single-target heals (150ft) and damage (100ft), which isn't a fair way of looking at things. As for them not being able to block/parry... correct? Your shield gives you additional survivability, and the Shamans survive by running. And as you get up to larger scale those Shamans are now only 80ft away from the enemy at best in order to use FoTG which makes them very easy to catch with something like a ranged knockdown, ranged snare, etc.
Did you know that as a warrior-priest, if you try to use Judgement on a shaman to snare him, you're going to proc his running speed tactic, so you're actually making him run faster by trying to snare him ? Judgement is a 20% snare, the shaman tactic gives a 30% speed bonus, so he just ends up running 10% faster thanks to you. Isn't it great ? Now you can have all your fun looking at your shield while dying from the dots
Did you know that nothing in this game is balanced around 1v1? At this point I'm pretty sure the devs kept DPS Shamans and AMs as they are to keep people from thinking 1v1 should ever be a thing. Group game, group comps. 1v1 is an aberration, regardless of how much some people really want it to be a thing.
Okay, but how is it normal that range classes end up having more mobility and control tools than a melee spec ? They already have the range advantage, on top of that they have mobility tools and multiple controls to prevent you from reaching them (snares from range, knockdowns and punts from range). And on top of all of that, as a shield healer you have almost no tools to close the gap.
And even though they have all those advantages, melee still dominates pretty much every aspect of this game except inconsequential random roaming 1v1s.
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Keula
Posts: 93

Re: Dok and WP Shields giving running speed

Post#28 » Sun May 28, 2023 11:07 pm

Mvl130 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:31 pm Like I said, pretty much any healing priest or dok is going to run with book/chalice because it has 0 drawback.
Book/chalice has weaknesses vs shield, maybe not in rvr, but in an small organized scenario situation(and pve clear speed) shield can be better, due to offering damage pressure and better single target healing. Obviously ranked is kinda dead now nowdays, but that would be a great example where shield is better and nearly every single dok and wp were shield for a reason, with chalice dok being the probably the worst healer you could bring to ranked, book wp wasn't as bad, but still worse than shield. The non-AP melee healing also has insane range to the point where I don't even know what the limit is other than able to target

As for how good the +20% speed proc not cancelling would be, yea that sounds reallyreally good, probably would've used that shield nearly all the time, considering the amount of aoe that flied around even in 6v6 the uptime would've been very high thus allowing for better positioning easier and faster punt recovery.
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yoluigi
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Re: Dok and WP Shields giving running speed

Post#29 » Mon May 29, 2023 12:05 am


Click here to watch on YouTube I went full futile strike 1k str and build https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... 1,2958,585 it's really good that steal str/toughness is a tactic soo it stack with normal abilities if you got a party member with a toughness debuff it's really good

geezereur
Posts: 620

Re: Dok and WP Shields giving running speed

Post#30 » Mon May 29, 2023 1:00 am

My Witch Hunter with healing bullets heals more than my dps Warrior Priest, Divine Assault is so easy to interupt. Whats the point of a dps wp if my witch hunter can survive better and do way more damage?

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