Return of Reckoning

After nerfing turrets from 40% to 20%, classes began to sag in efficiency.
After breaking the abilities of turrets and demons, classes became almost unplayable.
then the sovereign bonus from 4 parts + 15% crit damage was broken, which further pulled the classes to the bottom
now it is also planned remove turrets buff.

The very concept of buffs from the turret is very good, and in some places it did not work
Regarding the proposed changes so that the classes do not be trash at all:
-Get +40% damage back from the turret
-Fix turret abilities
-Return turret buffs
-Reduce AoE damage done to turrets 10% instead 25%
-About Ranges, all sources inceasing or discreasing will need change on nambers instead percent(second tactik on 2 branch +25ft for 2branch abilityes, pink horror or gun turret will increase range for 5ft per stack,max +25ft, blue horror or flame turret will discrease 4ft per stack, max -20ft)
-Napalm and Fog, have very little effectiveness, since the enemy just needs to get out of it, you need to add 40% slow for the duration of the duration. Not 60% because the duration is equal to the cooldown and it is possible to shift all the time
-In the first branch, each class needs target control, whether it be slow or silent, in addition to disarming, or let the turret have a slow (Pink Demon and Weapon Turret)
-Classes do not have a healer debuff, perhaps the first skill of the second branch will be an interesting option (Seed of Chaos and Sticky Bomb) -50% of the incoming heal
-Instant summoning tactic has no effect on getting stacks, can give 4 stacks out of 8

Specifically for engineer
-Dot Incendiary rounds should not have a cooldown, the Magus analogue dont have cd, 10 sec cooldown with quick heals of the opponent makes this Dot just useless, it is removed and cannot be shifted
-Armour piercing rounds should not have armor piercing but armor piercing like from weapon skills and stack with it, plus 12 seconds is a very small window, need to do 1 hour
-Phosphorous shells need to be able to move away after the cast starts
-It would be possible to give the opportunity to deploy Bugman's best by instant with tactics on the instant turret
-Electromagnet will stay 2 sec after cast on place, and will pull 3 times(initial and every 1 sec) 3-4 person(who not have pull immunes) each time

Specifically for Magus
-Aegis of orange fire initially gave 120 vitality, and the response was for each hit, but now they doubled the amount of survivability but reduced the chance of retaliatory damage by 4 times, I suggest raising the chance of retaliatory damage to 50%, it will be more honest
-Agonizing torrent add a 20% non-removable movement speed effect and allow casting on the move under a fireman and/or blue demon, this will revitalize the rift branch
-Chaotic Rift also allows you to cast on the move if you have stacks of a demon (Blue and/or Flamer), and will pull 6-8 person(who not have pull immunes) on you position(not near)
-Warpfire also allows you to cast on the move if you have demon stacks (Blue and/or fireman), speed up to one tick every 0.5 seconds with disorientation applied

I hope Devs will see this massage

demons/turrets being castable instantly without tactic would be a good start. heck, id go as far as taking them off gcd

those "nerfs" will be balanced out soon after the testserver, the devs build a whole tool to balance faster and efficient. sucks that for 2 weeks engi and other classes will be nerfed, but hey the devs do their best to balance it.

Whyumadbro wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 8:43 pm those "nerfs" will be balanced out soon after the testserver, the devs build a whole tool to balance faster and efficient. sucks that for 2 weeks engi and other classes will be nerfed, but hey the devs do their best to balance it.

Unplayable more like. The lack of fun on the engineer is attributed to the lack of mobility. It's glued to it's turret by design and you don't get enough reward for doing so IMO. Compare it to a BW. You have to sit next you your turret, you do less damage and you have more of a ramp up time as if you want full damage potential you have to wait for the stacks. BW just pop an instant cast and after a DoT rotation are at full combustion. So the damage needs to be addressed, so does the ramp up time of damage. And also the mobility. I think everyone can agree turret deployment should be made an instant cast by default.

They should reduce turret stack damage but increase overall damage on all abilities. Turrets give a small bonus that ramps up, but it won't make engie/mag quite so tied to them to make damage viable.

Scottx125 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 9:08 pm

Whyumadbro wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 8:43 pm those "nerfs" will be balanced out soon after the testserver, the devs build a whole tool to balance faster and efficient. sucks that for 2 weeks engi and other classes will be nerfed, but hey the devs do their best to balance it.

Unplayable more like. The lack of fun on the engineer is attributed to the lack of mobility. It's glued to it's turret by design and you don't get enough reward for doing so IMO. Compare it to a BW. You have to sit next you your turret, you do less damage and you have more of a ramp up time as if you want full damage potential you have to wait for the stacks. BW just pop an instant cast and after a DoT rotation are at full combustion. So the damage needs to be addressed, so does the ramp up time of damage. And also the mobility. I think everyone can agree turret deployment should be made an instant cast by default.

I have both classes over rr70 and bw in sov i know As i said - it will be balanced - who knows what they will do

Detangler wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 10:43 pm They should reduce turret stack damage but increase overall damage on all abilities. Turrets give a small bonus that ramps up, but it won't make engie/mag quite so tied to them to make damage viable.

I disagree. The turret is the Engi/Magus main class mechanic. Decoupling them from the turret will just move the game towards being more samey, which I think is a bad thing.

Using the turret effectively can be quite challenging under competitive circumstances, and the counterplay is obvious (kill the turret). If the Engi/Magus positions themselves well and keeps their turret alive, they should be rewarded with great damage. Right now, they're barely viable in terms of damage even if played well. They do get very strong utility, but that will take a hit too once certain abilities can no longer be used while moving.

All in all, this is a step in the wrong direction, even if we assume the class will be getting compensated in some way.

DKSkulL wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 7:59 pm ...

I think every class should have its defined roll, unique playstyle, pros and cons.

When it comes to Magus/Engi one of their unique things are of course the turrets. Players should have a need to put them down and use that game mechanic. In return they should receive stuff that makes the class and the playstyle unique. That being said, Im not a fan at all that they are rolling back the special pet abilities, like range, cast on the move or increased aoe range.

Having a unique class experience is one thing but it has to be also competitive when compared to other classes otherwise nobody will choose to play them. They were designed to be a very stationary class and shine (well, not really) in situations that are stationary, like fort/keep defenses. That's nice but how often do these fights happen these days and how good is a Magus/Engi really in that niche? Id say they are not any better than Sorcs/BW and still have all the negative stationary stuff in ORVR and scenarios. Time has changed and combat has become a lot faster. Rushing in with warbands and quickly getting out again is one of the main strategies these days. Even when two warbands are fighting each other, the combat usually moves in one direction or the other pretty quickly. All stationary stuff is just terrible in these situations. You put down napalm/mist and 3s later they are fighting somewhere else. No chance to ramp up. Same with shells/firestorm. Stationary, slow ticks, no stacking, low damage, can't do anything else while channeling. It's just not performing well.

So, Id suggest to give more mobility and a turret mechanic that matters:
- bring back the turret mechanics you were removing in the provisional patch
- increase the radius you are being affected by the pet from 25ft to 50ft
- make it tick up faster, 4 ticks instead of 8
- let turrets take less damage from aoe
- make instant deployment a core thing (no other class has to use a tactic just to make their mechanic worth anything)

These changes would help the mobility and damage a bit.

Now when we are looking at the mastery trees there are basically three roles for Magus/Engis: sniper, aoe dd and close range utility class

The Sniper:
Their role should be to have hard hitting single target abilities at extended range. Here we have to differentiate between Magus and Engi. Magus can currently fullfil this role pretty well and there are sniper Magus around that are doing pretty well. It is mainly due to their magical damage, facing a lot less mitigation than Engis. A physical dd sniper without good armor pierce is just not working. Even a cloth caster can have 60-80% physical mitigation. Just try it out and you will see how poor they perform, even vs supposed to be squishy cloth targets. It doesn't kill anything unless you stack 2-3 of them. But then you can stack 2-3 BWs/Sorcs as well and do much better.

The AOE dd:
Their role should be to soften targets and weaken them enough for killing. Here Magus and Engi play very similarly. Both are doing magical damage and have basically the same set of tools. Id say that this spec is okish. Just a slight buff needed. The dot abilities could scale a little bit better from main stats and the napalm/mist, firestorm/shells could tick a bit faster. The damage after all is pretty low and there is no stacking of these abilities. It should be higher, since BW/Sorcs have aoe and strong single target damage. Engi/Magus only have that fluff aoe in that mastery. I think the main concept behind aoe dots was to cancel out group hots / group shield, in general hots and shields. It's no longer the case. These dots tick for a lot less and can be cleansed and dodged, making them no threat at all. Especially tanks can walk around with 20 dots on without even caring.

The close range utility class:
Their role should probably be a focus on crowd control and assisting group play with some assist damage. This is more of a 1:1 niche and secondary mastery. It would help to reduce cast times and cool downs a little. For example a 2s keg cast in combat with set backs is just painful, so is the 1s Magnet cast. If you commit into deep utility tree then you should benefit from it. Other classes get the pull for free or in their main spec. Overall Id prefer to have less pulls than more though. It's a very annoying ability.

I can only recommend the devs to play the different Magus/Engi specs for a moment to see what I am talking about. Start with Engi, which is the class with the most issues right now.

Cheers.

In 3 words - make me OP.

Good magus already has a disturbing level of dps and is really disgusting as 1v1 opponent (both dps and defregen variants). His problem is that he is forced to play around his turret. But if you address this weakness completely - you are just creating a new OP class. Minor adjustments are probably a good idea though.

The idea about instant tactic giving some stacks is interesting - the rest are from "give WE/WH instant stealth+charge" cathegory.

P.S. Engie IS in a bad spot though. Magic damage is superior to physical after all, and the fact that most of the engies are just immunity dispencers isn't helping.

Avernus wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 9:50 am In 3 words - make me OP.

Good magus already has a disturbing level of dps and is really disgusting as 1v1 opponent (both dps and defregen variants). His problem is that he is forced to play around his turret. But if you address this weakness completely - you are just creating a new OP class. Minor adjustments are probably a good idea though.

The idea about instant tactic giving some stacks is ineteresting - the rest are from "give WE/WH instant stealth+charge" cathegory.

P.S. Engie IS in a bad spot though. Magic damage is superior to physical after all, and the fact that most of the engies are just immunity dispencers isn't helping.

Debatable if going against Disrupt is better than Dodge.