Marauder or choppa?
Ads
Re: Marauder or choppa?
Compared to the Mara or BG, and playing in a group where snare and other debuffs are handled better by the tanks and Mara you only need to rotate a handful of skills to maintain high burst dmg (the Choppa's role)
Whilst it's certainy easier to maintain sustained dps in red, I knew several fantastic Choppas and Slayers on live that didn't slot Wot Rules, managed their mechanic well and did tremendous burst whilst at the same time not dying 15 times a fight
And saying Mara is more tanky is false, if anything a laissez faire attitude to the rage mechanic mnagement means the Choppa can become more fragile than the Mara is a more accurate description
Whilst it's certainy easier to maintain sustained dps in red, I knew several fantastic Choppas and Slayers on live that didn't slot Wot Rules, managed their mechanic well and did tremendous burst whilst at the same time not dying 15 times a fight
And saying Mara is more tanky is false, if anything a laissez faire attitude to the rage mechanic mnagement means the Choppa can become more fragile than the Mara is a more accurate description
Re: Marauder or choppa?
i don't see any reason to choose choppa over marauder if you ask me in a srs way. in a non-srs way: choppa is green and offers tons of fun.
cheers.
cheers.
Re: Marauder or choppa?
Firstly, let me clarify I'm not saying the Mara is a weak or underpowered class. However I do feel the commonly held belief that it's a pseudo tank dealing top melee damage is a fallacy long upheld by Order at least in part to draw attention away from the glaringly obvious one-side-only realm-disparity defects in the original design
ST dps Marauder vs ST dps Choppa vs ST dps WE - all gear being equal - Choppa wins hands down
Furthermore, no mdps class has more frontloaded burst than the WL, and in a game where (outside of 1v1 and PvE), burst>>>>sustatined - WL has the upper hand
See: (Mara) Mutated Aggressor (9pt career ability - no restriction)
See: (SW) Vengeance of Nagarythe (free/core)
See: (WL) Primal Fury (9pt career ability - sides/back)
See: (SH) Seems like they don't have one (although it's late, so correct me if I'm wrong)
Mara needs to be in melee to benefit from this, SW gets this bonus from the relative safety of range
Furthermore if you're looking at ~100% uptime heal debuffs - DoK, BG, IB, WH, WE)
Futhermore, to clarify - this only affected armor penetration from the Attackers WS, not Torment or other Armor bypass abilities
Out-dps'd by commensurate gear/ability Choppa/Slayer and depending on target archtype by WH/WE too
Out-dps'd in terms of burst by WL
And you're seriously comparing that MORE favorably than spammable Pounce, a pet that can also snare and Fetch?
WL > Mara when it comes to mdps vs kiter
Worth a notable mention here (albeit not mdps) - is the 2x rKD that Order have too to mitigate anti-kiters that Destro has no mirror for
--a chance to proc
----a low value HoT
--------if you are within range to land a melee blow
--------(same applies to heal-leech, but further limited to IF the target is being healed)
- +50% AA haste
+group crit (Encouraged Aim + Leading Shots + Dirty Tricks) - supplemented by +ST crit (Ancestor's Fury)
Focused Mending
2x rKD
Exalted Defences
Runefang+Emperor's Champion
Pounce
Destroy Confidence (1x (core!) tactic neutralizes a whole destro class)
ID
Rampage & Shatter Limbs (on prime mdps) vs Bad Gas on a career spec that almost no SH plays
Let's not misuse the word 'fact' when you actually mean 'commonly held belief'Bretin wrote: A few facts referring to the mentioned points above:
I'm not sure you're factoring in stat contribution coefficients to abilities (at least on Live)Bretin wrote: 1. The Marauder has the highest base-damage-values of all mdps-classes,
ST dps Marauder vs ST dps Choppa vs ST dps WE - all gear being equal - Choppa wins hands down
Furthermore, no mdps class has more frontloaded burst than the WL, and in a game where (outside of 1v1 and PvE), burst>>>>sustatined - WL has the upper hand
Glad you brought up GI, let's compare +crit dmg tactics on mdpsBretin wrote: since he never had a damage mechanic or a crit-dmg tactic in the past (GI was too unreliable to count as such one). That didn’t change after the buffs to GI, so that the Marauder has the same dmg modifiers as WE/WH/WL (with restrictions, since all these classes got tactics which increases their dmg modifier but which can be used only limited i.e. Vindication, Masterful Treachery, Revenge etc.), while he has a higher base-damage on his abilities.
- Mara: Growing Instability (7pt +50% crit dmg tactic)
Choppa: Stab you Gooder (core +25% crit dmg tactic)
WE: Increased Pain (7pt +50% crit dmg tactic)
WL: Pack Synergy (core +50% crit dmg tactic)
Slayer: Fierce Might (7pt +10-90% crit dmg tactic)
WH: Fanatical Cleansing (7pt +50% crit dmg tactic)
- Mara: nope, nothing, nada
Choppa: Git stuck in ( [Core Ability] +35% AA Haste to group, up 20s, cooldown 60s, cost 15 AP and 1 GCD)
WE: nope, nothing, nada
WL: Pack Hunting (7pt +50% AA Haste tactic - 100% uptime, no AP cost)
Slayer: Push for More (core +25-50% AA Haste tactic - 100% uptime, no AP cost)
WH: Fanatical Cleansing (7pt +50% AA Haste tactic - 100% uptime, no AP cost)
Given that Mara/SH and WL/SW are a wierd 4-way cross mirrorBretin wrote: However, the Marauder would be able to keep pace even if you consider the above mentioned tactics, since he got a equally strong ability which works without any restrictions regarding to reliability and tactic-slots (Mutated Aggressor).
See: (Mara) Mutated Aggressor (9pt career ability - no restriction)
See: (SW) Vengeance of Nagarythe (free/core)
See: (WL) Primal Fury (9pt career ability - sides/back)
See: (SH) Seems like they don't have one (although it's late, so correct me if I'm wrong)
Mara needs to be in melee to benefit from this, SW gets this bonus from the relative safety of range
I have no clue what you're making up now or where you get these percentage stats...Bretin wrote: 2. The Marauder is by far the class which deals, almost independently on your target, the most damage in comparison to his maximum damage potential. That means, while every other mdps class is limited to 20-30% of his max. damage potential against some classes and players, the marauder is able to pull off 50-60% of his max. damage potential against the same target. That’s a result of the immense low mitigation a marauder can reach against his target,
... and by this you mean, exactly the same Armor debuff that the WL has...Bretin wrote: thanks to the best armor debuff,
Piercing Bite is certainly one of the strongest and career-defining tactics available to the Mara - no argument thereBretin wrote: a toughness debuff and a tactic which let you ignore 50% of the remaining armor and another skill which does not only profit from the above mentioned penetration-possibilities but also ignores a fixed value of armor by itself.
..wait wut?Bretin wrote: 3. The Marauder is the onliest
I encourage you to try to dps a healer (especially WP) through guard on a Marauder, here in T2 or when we get to T4 without and assist train.Bretin wrote: mdps class which has all debuffs you need to kill a target with guard.
lol. It _can_ be purged, just not by a WP.Bretin wrote: Every other dps class relies on a second one because she either lack the heal- or armor debuff. The marauder does not only have both of these abilities, no his versions of those abilities are also the strongest ig (best armor debuff and best healdebuff because it can’t be purged by the wp’s group purge
Furthermore if you're looking at ~100% uptime heal debuffs - DoK, BG, IB, WH, WE)
Im sure Aza will fix that, hopefully along with CD on Pounce, cleansable ID, melee-range shatter confidence, Rampage not affecting AoE etc and all the other obvious bugsBretin wrote:on a 5s CD and 10s duration plus 50% heal leech for the Marauder himself. That heal leech contains literally every healing type, including potions and even more preposterous: OVERHEAL!)
... save WL, who along with a snare of their own, have a snare from their pet and fetch ... oh and let's not forget Pounce without a cooldown ...Bretin wrote: 3.1 A snare which can’t be purged. Therefore the best snare of all MDPS-classes and combined with charge and terrible embrace it makes the Marauder the best MDPS-class when it comes to prevent your target from kiting.
Indeed - it (along with Cutting Claw) are compelling reasons to consider a Mara for one of the dps slots, although he will still deal less ST dmg than a ChoppaBretin wrote:Also the Marauder has the best HP-debuff ingame, which is the third best debuff after armor and healdebuff you can have on a target. It shouldn’t surprise anyone if I now tell you that this ability is not only bugged but also the best version of HP-debuff the game offers.
Nope - see: WL + Choppa + SlayerBretin wrote: 4. The Marauder wears “Medium Armor”. No other MDPS-Class has more armor than the Marauder besides a WL
Whilst this was powerful on Live, Aza has said he may not code this (it's not in the game in any capacity atm) the same way it was.Bretin wrote:who’s using Baited Trap”. The Marauder has the unique ability to make himself immune against armor penetration, if it’s needed. Thus makes the marauder become the toughest MDPS class ingame with only 1 click.
Futhermore, to clarify - this only affected armor penetration from the Attackers WS, not Torment or other Armor bypass abilities
Clearly not.Bretin wrote: tl:dr:
Let’s summarize why the mrd is “op”:
- More damage potential than any other MDPS-class
Out-dps'd by commensurate gear/ability Choppa/Slayer and depending on target archtype by WH/WE too
Out-dps'd in terms of burst by WL
Mara is the Destro debuff bot, and barring Wounds debuff - has a mirror on the Order sideBretin wrote: - Combines all debuff types and also got the best versions of those
Your argument here is that the Mara snare is not an ailment (but still needs to be able to land it IN melee for it to work) and he has TEBretin wrote: - High combat uptime and the best class to prevent a target from kiting and force them into the assist train
And you're seriously comparing that MORE favorably than spammable Pounce, a pet that can also snare and Fetch?
WL > Mara when it comes to mdps vs kiter
Worth a notable mention here (albeit not mdps) - is the 2x rKD that Order have too to mitigate anti-kiters that Destro has no mirror for
Not saying that they (Monstro heal ticks) aren't appreciated - but let's call a spade a spade, it isBretin wrote: - If needed the toughest MDPS-Class by swapping mutation + the hardest class to kill due to self-heal and heal-leech.
--a chance to proc
----a low value HoT
--------if you are within range to land a melee blow
--------(same applies to heal-leech, but further limited to IF the target is being healed)
Bretin wrote: i don't see any reason to choose choppa over marauder if you ask me in a srs way. in a non-srs way: choppa is green and offers tons of fun.
Re: Marauder or choppa?
I'd personally say Marauder for solo, Choppa for groups/warband.
Re: Marauder or choppa?
Just curious and maybe i'm blind, but where is the source of all the Bretin quotes?
Re: Marauder or choppa?
Me neither. He probably edited his post because Xaun was a bit more knowledgeable than him, and made him look like a fool. I don't know, lol.Luth wrote:Just curious and maybe i'm blind, but where is the source of all the Bretin quotes?
Ads
Re: Marauder or choppa?
If you give pounce an CD than the ability is worthles. Than might aswell give them an new ability instead that makes them abit unique and more worth playing. The class is a wreck atm.
I would fix the class first.
I would fix the class first.
Re: Marauder or choppa?
i deleted the post before xaun answered because i realized that i have to argue with the common clueless theory tards spamming into every thread here and i am not rly in mood for that. xauns post made me lol tbh
here's the repost and i'm not gonna reply again since every halfbrained person can see how idiotic the post of xaun is
If you want to determine the balance of a class, you must consider the following attributes:
- How much offensive potential does the class have
- How much defensive potential does the class have
- In what way does the defense restrict the offensive and vice versa (if you’d have a number line, with the numbers 1-10 on the left and right side, which represent your defense resp. offensive, and in the middle a 0, how would it affect the ratio at one side if you’d manipulate the other side?)
Those are general things you have to define before you strive for further deliberations about the balance.
A few facts referring to the mentioned points above:
1. The Marauder has the highest base-damage-values of all mdps-classes, since he never had a damage mechanic or a crit-dmg tactic in the past (GI was too unreliable to count as such one). That didn’t change after the buffs to GI, so that the Marauder has the same dmg modifiers as WE/WH/WL (with restrictions, since all these classes got tactics which increases their dmg modifier but which can be used only limited i.e. Vindication, Masterful Treachery, Revenge etc.), while he has a higher base-damage on his abilities.
However, the Marauder would be able to keep pace even if you consider the above mentioned tactics, since he got a equally strong ability which works without any restrictions regarding to reliability and tactic-slots (Mutated Aggressor).
2. The Marauder is by far the class which deals, almost independently on your target, the most damage in comparison to his maximum damage potential. That means, while every other mdps class is limited to 20-30% of his max. damage potential against some classes and players, the marauder is able to pull off 50-60% of his max. damage potential against the same target. That’s a result of the immense low mitigation a marauder can reach against his target, thanks to the best armor debuff, a toughness debuff and a tactic which let you ignore 50% of the remaining armor and another skill which does not only profit from the above mentioned penetration-possibilities but also ignores a fixed value of armor by itself.
3. The Marauder is the onliest mdps class which has all debuffs you need to kill a target with guard. Every other dps class relies on a second one because she either lack the heal- or armor debuff. The marauder does not only have both of these abilities, no his versions of those abilities are also the strongest ig (best armor debuff and best healdebuff because it can’t be purged by the wp’s group purge on a 5s CD and 10s duration plus 50% heal leech for the Marauder himself. That heal leech contains literally every healing type, including potions and even more preposterous: OVERHEAL!)
3.1 A snare which can’t be purged. Therefore the best snare of all MDPS-classes and combined with charge and terrible embrace it makes the Marauder the best MDPS-class when it comes to prevent your target from kiting.
Also the Marauder has the best HP-debuff ingame, which is the third best debuff after armor and healdebuff you can have on a target. It shouldn’t surprise anyone if I now tell you that this ability is not only bugged but also the best version of HP-debuff the game offers.
4. The Marauder wears “Medium Armor”. No other MDPS-Class has more armor than the Marauder besides a WL who’s using Baited Trap”. The Marauder has the unique ability to make himself immune against armor penetration, if it’s needed. Thus makes the marauder become the toughest MDPS class ingame with only 1 click.
tl:dr:
Let’s summarize why the mrd is “op”:
- More damage potential than any other MDPS-class
- Combines all debuff types and also got the best versions of those
- High combat uptime and the best class to prevent a target from kiting and force them into the assist train
- If needed the toughest MDPS-Class by swapping mutation + the hardest class to kill due to self-heal and heal-leech.
here's the repost and i'm not gonna reply again since every halfbrained person can see how idiotic the post of xaun is
If you want to determine the balance of a class, you must consider the following attributes:
- How much offensive potential does the class have
- How much defensive potential does the class have
- In what way does the defense restrict the offensive and vice versa (if you’d have a number line, with the numbers 1-10 on the left and right side, which represent your defense resp. offensive, and in the middle a 0, how would it affect the ratio at one side if you’d manipulate the other side?)
Those are general things you have to define before you strive for further deliberations about the balance.
A few facts referring to the mentioned points above:
1. The Marauder has the highest base-damage-values of all mdps-classes, since he never had a damage mechanic or a crit-dmg tactic in the past (GI was too unreliable to count as such one). That didn’t change after the buffs to GI, so that the Marauder has the same dmg modifiers as WE/WH/WL (with restrictions, since all these classes got tactics which increases their dmg modifier but which can be used only limited i.e. Vindication, Masterful Treachery, Revenge etc.), while he has a higher base-damage on his abilities.
However, the Marauder would be able to keep pace even if you consider the above mentioned tactics, since he got a equally strong ability which works without any restrictions regarding to reliability and tactic-slots (Mutated Aggressor).
2. The Marauder is by far the class which deals, almost independently on your target, the most damage in comparison to his maximum damage potential. That means, while every other mdps class is limited to 20-30% of his max. damage potential against some classes and players, the marauder is able to pull off 50-60% of his max. damage potential against the same target. That’s a result of the immense low mitigation a marauder can reach against his target, thanks to the best armor debuff, a toughness debuff and a tactic which let you ignore 50% of the remaining armor and another skill which does not only profit from the above mentioned penetration-possibilities but also ignores a fixed value of armor by itself.
3. The Marauder is the onliest mdps class which has all debuffs you need to kill a target with guard. Every other dps class relies on a second one because she either lack the heal- or armor debuff. The marauder does not only have both of these abilities, no his versions of those abilities are also the strongest ig (best armor debuff and best healdebuff because it can’t be purged by the wp’s group purge on a 5s CD and 10s duration plus 50% heal leech for the Marauder himself. That heal leech contains literally every healing type, including potions and even more preposterous: OVERHEAL!)
3.1 A snare which can’t be purged. Therefore the best snare of all MDPS-classes and combined with charge and terrible embrace it makes the Marauder the best MDPS-class when it comes to prevent your target from kiting.
Also the Marauder has the best HP-debuff ingame, which is the third best debuff after armor and healdebuff you can have on a target. It shouldn’t surprise anyone if I now tell you that this ability is not only bugged but also the best version of HP-debuff the game offers.
4. The Marauder wears “Medium Armor”. No other MDPS-Class has more armor than the Marauder besides a WL who’s using Baited Trap”. The Marauder has the unique ability to make himself immune against armor penetration, if it’s needed. Thus makes the marauder become the toughest MDPS class ingame with only 1 click.
tl:dr:
Let’s summarize why the mrd is “op”:
- More damage potential than any other MDPS-class
- Combines all debuff types and also got the best versions of those
- High combat uptime and the best class to prevent a target from kiting and force them into the assist train
- If needed the toughest MDPS-Class by swapping mutation + the hardest class to kill due to self-heal and heal-leech.
Last edited by Bretin on Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Wolfx and 76 guests