The Destro Attitude
Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 7:49 pm
I won't call the warbands of Order on the server taking Keeps and farming renown with little to no opposition the Z word. They are using an in-game utility; the Warband, to do exactly what the Warband is supposed to do. The fact that Destro does not do the same is the issue. What we need to figure out is WHY.
What follows is my opinion of why Destro fails at ORVR. It all boils down to one thing - Attitude.
Destro takes the attitude that Orvr should be small group orientated and anyone who runs with, runs in, or leads a warband is a zergling baddie. Order seems to have figured out that it's part of the game and has no real issues with Warbanding up to get'r done. In fact, Order wears it's large group dominance like a badge of honor. They are literally proud of their ability to come together and dominate Destro. They have some amount of realm pride, community, or at least a willingness to work together.
As a Destro player, I can tell you that attempts to get some of the more skilled and active players to coordinate their 6-mans into a warband setting and take the WBvWB fight to Order in the lakes has been met with, and these are quotes;
"we don't zerg"
"Pug Order would quit after the first wipe and our 4 premades would be left with nothing but empty keeps to take."
"just stick to scenarios instead of hitting (your) head against a brick wall"
"even if u do manage to gather 24 "decent" players, guilds like Orz and Warbuddy will destroy you in seconds like they did back on live"
" I honestly feel like.. ..when we run around with 8 - 9 people it's too many. It makes 6v6s into 9v6s and we just roll over them with numbers. It makes fun fights harder to find"
IMO, this attitude is what's making Orvr into the one-sided nightmare it is now when I play the game. Destro's unwillingness to form a warband using the level capped and skilled players is only the tip of the iceberg. Newer players just into T2 try and form warbands and go out into the lakes to fight/xp/renown only to get massacred by Warbands full of lev capped RR30+ players. That sets the tone for how they view Orvr now and when they hit level cap - creating a generation of players who only run SCs and avoid ORVR.
It's not just Orvr, it's scenarios as well. We run a 2-3 man guild group and get a few decent pick up players to join in a 5 or 6 man SC group most nights. Well, recently, we are seeing dual premade SCs by Order. Again, not saying it's wrong or bad or anything other than great planning and strategy. What do you think happened when I tried to get two Destro 6-mans together to counter the Order double premade? It was like herding squirrels. They didn't want to wait, they left group, they bitched about his, they bitched about that, they didn't want to use voice coms. Some of them just wanted to que, run in, die, rinse, and repeat like idiots.
It was so bad, for the first time since I started playing, I wasn't having fun. I just logged out.
The attitude among the Destro players who could make a real and tangible difference in ORVR is that ORVR is for mindless zerglings and beneath them. If that's the attitude you take, and you want to play the game your way, that's fine, but you can't have that attitude and be successful in this game IMO. The 6-man roaming group is a byproduct of a successful Warband versus Warband environment. Without a main force to meet the opposition head-on, your 6 man will have to do it. That said, many of these 6-man only are the ones begging for AAO. IMO AAO only serves to justify and reinforce their position that Warbands are somehow beneath them.
If the majority of the decent players on Destro feel that warbands are beneath them, then Destro will never have a shot at a successful push in Orvr. Orvr is supposed to be the focus of this game.
I submit that the Dev team should not implement AAO and reinforce the 6-man mentality for ORVR.
I submit that the "OLD" Orvr system was better in that it allowed both the Warbands and 6-mans to "do their thing" and pick and choose their battles. Have a lowbie full Warband and don't want to fight a lev cap warband? Fine. Have a 6-man and want to take on a warband? Fine. Move to the other zone and force Order to follow? OK. Fight at the Skaven tunnels? OK. Did empty keep takes happen? Yes, on both sides. DO keep takes happen now? Yes, for Order.
If you want Open RvR again, you must open up two zones. If you do, the warband that gets wiped will at the very least have the option to go take BOs or try to take the Keep in the alternate zone. As it is now, any semblance of a warband Destro manages to scrape together simply disbands once it wipes. Why? because the players know Order's larger, better organized Warband will simply keep wiping them over and over again until Order locks this zone, and the wiping moves to a different zone. There is no other option or hope.
As it stands now, Destro does not have (nor has it had) a real warband online at any time I've been playing, since the "Great Destro Zerg" of 2105 - 2+ weeks ago. The current system forces all to one area, and kills ORVR for one side or the other. Really, it kills it for both. I believe any order player will tell you he'd rather fight than farm keeps.
OK.. here's in reply to all the responses before you even get started..
"But Luucca, you only run a 6-man, you are part of the problem."
A: Yes, I like to run SCs and Orvr in a 6-man. I truly feel that if Destro could get a solid warband going every night I'm on, it would help facilitate the tactics and strategies my 6-man uses in ORVR. Yes, I'm selfish. I only want a successful WB to help my team out.
"why don't you lead a PuG warband if you want a warband so much?"
A: I tried. Destro players have lost all hope of having a successful warband. Once it wipes, it's over. Players leave the warband in droves. I've tried to convince the active guilds with good 6-mans to WB-Up with me and take the large scale fight to order, and their replies to this are the reason for this post.
TL:DR; Destro is demoralized in ORVR and has an attitude of "WBs are for zerglings" or of "It's pointless". Going back to a multi-zone ORvR system will allow for lessor warbands and 6-mans options as to where and when to fight as well as force the larger force to either play musical Keeps or split their larger force to cover more ground.
What follows is my opinion of why Destro fails at ORVR. It all boils down to one thing - Attitude.
Destro takes the attitude that Orvr should be small group orientated and anyone who runs with, runs in, or leads a warband is a zergling baddie. Order seems to have figured out that it's part of the game and has no real issues with Warbanding up to get'r done. In fact, Order wears it's large group dominance like a badge of honor. They are literally proud of their ability to come together and dominate Destro. They have some amount of realm pride, community, or at least a willingness to work together.
As a Destro player, I can tell you that attempts to get some of the more skilled and active players to coordinate their 6-mans into a warband setting and take the WBvWB fight to Order in the lakes has been met with, and these are quotes;
"we don't zerg"
"Pug Order would quit after the first wipe and our 4 premades would be left with nothing but empty keeps to take."
"just stick to scenarios instead of hitting (your) head against a brick wall"
"even if u do manage to gather 24 "decent" players, guilds like Orz and Warbuddy will destroy you in seconds like they did back on live"
" I honestly feel like.. ..when we run around with 8 - 9 people it's too many. It makes 6v6s into 9v6s and we just roll over them with numbers. It makes fun fights harder to find"
IMO, this attitude is what's making Orvr into the one-sided nightmare it is now when I play the game. Destro's unwillingness to form a warband using the level capped and skilled players is only the tip of the iceberg. Newer players just into T2 try and form warbands and go out into the lakes to fight/xp/renown only to get massacred by Warbands full of lev capped RR30+ players. That sets the tone for how they view Orvr now and when they hit level cap - creating a generation of players who only run SCs and avoid ORVR.
It's not just Orvr, it's scenarios as well. We run a 2-3 man guild group and get a few decent pick up players to join in a 5 or 6 man SC group most nights. Well, recently, we are seeing dual premade SCs by Order. Again, not saying it's wrong or bad or anything other than great planning and strategy. What do you think happened when I tried to get two Destro 6-mans together to counter the Order double premade? It was like herding squirrels. They didn't want to wait, they left group, they bitched about his, they bitched about that, they didn't want to use voice coms. Some of them just wanted to que, run in, die, rinse, and repeat like idiots.
It was so bad, for the first time since I started playing, I wasn't having fun. I just logged out.
The attitude among the Destro players who could make a real and tangible difference in ORVR is that ORVR is for mindless zerglings and beneath them. If that's the attitude you take, and you want to play the game your way, that's fine, but you can't have that attitude and be successful in this game IMO. The 6-man roaming group is a byproduct of a successful Warband versus Warband environment. Without a main force to meet the opposition head-on, your 6 man will have to do it. That said, many of these 6-man only are the ones begging for AAO. IMO AAO only serves to justify and reinforce their position that Warbands are somehow beneath them.
If the majority of the decent players on Destro feel that warbands are beneath them, then Destro will never have a shot at a successful push in Orvr. Orvr is supposed to be the focus of this game.
I submit that the Dev team should not implement AAO and reinforce the 6-man mentality for ORVR.
I submit that the "OLD" Orvr system was better in that it allowed both the Warbands and 6-mans to "do their thing" and pick and choose their battles. Have a lowbie full Warband and don't want to fight a lev cap warband? Fine. Have a 6-man and want to take on a warband? Fine. Move to the other zone and force Order to follow? OK. Fight at the Skaven tunnels? OK. Did empty keep takes happen? Yes, on both sides. DO keep takes happen now? Yes, for Order.
If you want Open RvR again, you must open up two zones. If you do, the warband that gets wiped will at the very least have the option to go take BOs or try to take the Keep in the alternate zone. As it is now, any semblance of a warband Destro manages to scrape together simply disbands once it wipes. Why? because the players know Order's larger, better organized Warband will simply keep wiping them over and over again until Order locks this zone, and the wiping moves to a different zone. There is no other option or hope.
As it stands now, Destro does not have (nor has it had) a real warband online at any time I've been playing, since the "Great Destro Zerg" of 2105 - 2+ weeks ago. The current system forces all to one area, and kills ORVR for one side or the other. Really, it kills it for both. I believe any order player will tell you he'd rather fight than farm keeps.
OK.. here's in reply to all the responses before you even get started..
"But Luucca, you only run a 6-man, you are part of the problem."
A: Yes, I like to run SCs and Orvr in a 6-man. I truly feel that if Destro could get a solid warband going every night I'm on, it would help facilitate the tactics and strategies my 6-man uses in ORVR. Yes, I'm selfish. I only want a successful WB to help my team out.
"why don't you lead a PuG warband if you want a warband so much?"
A: I tried. Destro players have lost all hope of having a successful warband. Once it wipes, it's over. Players leave the warband in droves. I've tried to convince the active guilds with good 6-mans to WB-Up with me and take the large scale fight to order, and their replies to this are the reason for this post.
TL:DR; Destro is demoralized in ORVR and has an attitude of "WBs are for zerglings" or of "It's pointless". Going back to a multi-zone ORvR system will allow for lessor warbands and 6-mans options as to where and when to fight as well as force the larger force to either play musical Keeps or split their larger force to cover more ground.