Return of Reckoning

I just remembered that I tried to use Transfer Force once upon a time as an additional hot in heal spec. So I thought I will add that perspective to this hilarious argument about it.

Here is the part in a video https://youtu.be/xvTlccIhxBw?t=557. The idea was to put it on pets because they dont benefit from group buffs e.g. resistance buffs and therefore maximize the damage. The hope was that they also dont get group cleansed, never tested that though. I also dont know how dots work with that resummoning ability of turrets. Do the dots stick or is it a new turret?

Anyway the hot ticks were about 180 which is not too bad if you consider the long duration and that it swaps with your friendly target. Larger problem is your dps just killing the pet in 2 GCDs. And believe it or not: targeting the pet a) you usually want to stay the **** away and b) clicking into a blob with friendly targets that you need to heal is a pretty freaking bad idea.

At this point I would conclude that transfer force may be worth it if there are pets around. Against guarded target is probably useless due to all the mitigation etc...

Caduceus wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:06 pm

Crumbs wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:45 pm
Yeah I got one, sorc deals much higher instant burst damage on shorter rotations than AM.

As they should, considering;

A. Sorc is a dedicated DPS class, and AM/Shaman isn't.
B. Sorc has a class mechanic that kills them.
C. AM/Shaman has far superior utility and self-healing.

But in reality AM/Shaman isn't that far behind Sorc at all.

Crumbs wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:45 pm
Don't compare dots from sorc who the **** cares about their dot.

All Sorcs that care about backloading their burst, like any DPS should.

But this is an empty argument. So what, AM/Shaman should have DoT that is far superior to anything Sorc can bring to the table because "DoTs don't matter"? Nonsense.

Furthermore, this issue doesn't limit itself to DoTs. If you'd like I'll happily treat you to a comparison between Hand of Ruin and Searing Touch to show you which one is superior.

Nah, I'm not saying dots don't matter or I would've **** said "dots don't matter" and not followed up with talking about why a comparison between sorc and AM/shaman is dumb.

Because the manner in which they deal their damage is not comparable, their entire playstyle and their situations in which they perform best at, are not comparable either, neither are their alternate specs OR their mechanics. The whole idea of comparing/balancing one or the other by looking at these two classes doesn't make sense.

So you're going to show me the difference between 1 of their many instant DD damage abilities vs AMs primary DD that has no filler (other than DoT reapplication) with a 16sec cd? n1 mate.

All you need to understand is that sorc bursts 2-3x harder than AM backloaded, frontloaded whateverthefuckloaded mate, it's the burst damage that it deals that makes up for its weakness in dot damage.

I would take a top sorc to a am in a 2rdps v 2rdps ranked 6v6 any day. And in many other situations too.

Mic drop cya later bud

Crumbs wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:19 pm

Because the manner in which they deal their damage is not comparable,

Disagreed.

Crumbs wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:19 pm

their entire playstyle and their situations in which they perform best at, are not comparable either, neither are their alternate specs OR their mechanics. The whole idea of comparing/balancing one or the other by looking at these two classes doesn't make sense.

I can see no reason why the classes in their RDPS role shouldn't be compared to one another.

Crumbs wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:19 pm

So you're going to show me the difference between 1 of their many instant DD damage abilities vs AMs primary DD that has no filler (other than DoT reapplication) with a 16sec cd? n1 mate.

This is just wrong. Hand of Ruin isn't an instant DD ability, nor does Searing Touch have 16 seconds CD without Khaine's Touch.

Comparing them at base level they're identical except for the fact that Searing Touch inexplicably deals 1 more base damage.

And no filler? Not true. AM/Shaman get their version of Gloomburst (Fury of Asuryan/Big Waaagh!), Heal debuff, Storm of Cronos/'Scuse me! Wanna compare these to the Sorc's arsenal?

Crumbs wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:19 pm

All you need to understand is that sorc bursts 2-3x harder than AM backloaded, frontloaded whateverthefuckloaded mate, it's the burst damage that it deals that makes up for its weakness in dot damage.

2-3x harder? Nonsense.

Sorc can, in glass cannon build under perfect circumstances, reliably pull 10k burst.

AM/Shaman can get around 7-8k burst.

Sorc bursts more, no doubt, but for the reasons I have already shared there are good reasons for that. The question is whether AM/Shaman should be able to burst like this considering all the tools at their disposal that the Sorc lacks, and the lack of a mechanic that kills them.

Then there's the obvious problem of taking a glass cannon sorc into ranked 6v6.

But honestly, I never intended ranked 6v6 to be the focus of this discussion. AM/Shaman isn't OP in that setting. The reason it came up is because people suggested AM/Shaman was unplayable in ranked and used it as an excuse for why AM/Shaman should be OP in small-scale, which I wholeheartedly disagreed with.

Crumbs wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:19 pm

Mic drop cya later bud

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Caduceus wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 10:36 am

Crumbs wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:19 pm

So you're going to show me the difference between 1 of their many instant DD damage abilities vs AMs primary DD that has no filler (other than DoT reapplication) with a 16sec cd? n1 mate.

This is just wrong. Hand of Ruin isn't an instant DD ability, nor does Searing Touch have 16 seconds CD without Khaine's Touch.

Comparing them at base level they're identical except for the fact that Searing Touch inexplicably deals 1 more base damage.

And no filler? Not true. AM/Shaman get their version of Gloomburst (Fury of Asuryan/Big Waaagh!), Heal debuff, Storm of Cronos/'Scuse me! Wanna compare these to the Sorc's arsenal?

Crumbs wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:19 pm

All you need to understand is that sorc bursts 2-3x harder than AM backloaded, frontloaded whateverthefuckloaded mate, it's the burst damage that it deals that makes up for its weakness in dot damage.

...

Sorc can, in glass cannon build under perfect circumstances, reliably pull 10k burst.

AM/Shaman can get around 7-8k burst.
...

If HoR is no instant DD cast, then you are knowledgeable about the game and it's mechanics. The overall consensus is, it's an instant cast, which deals direct dmg.

The arsenal of offensive spells of a sorc looks way more impressive. They have even more CC than a dps AM. So probably nobody other than you knows, what you are on about.

It is correct, both spells look similar on paper, without adding a tactic every dps am worth their salt picks per default.
You just missed once again the slight difference in crit dmg/rate due to sorc mechanic but I guess you compare classes on that basis, because hell, it's the internet and 2020, what can go wrong.

I want to add, that even average Joe understands something different, when reading "burst", than you.

Sulorie wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:26 am

If HoR is no instant DD cast, then you are knowledgeable about the game and it's mechanics. The overall consensus is, it's an instant cast, which deals direct dmg.

It's a channeled spell, obviously.

Sulorie wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:26 am

It is correct, both spells look similar on paper, without adding a tactic every dps am worth their salt picks per default.

Indeed, they get a fantastic tactic. Wanna compare that to some of the Sorc's to see which one comes off better?

Sulorie wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:26 am

You just missed once again the slight difference in crit dmg/rate due to sorc mechanic but I guess you compare classes on that basis, because hell, it's the internet and 2020, what can go wrong.

The equalizer is obviously that Sorc's greater crit rate comes at a huge cost, which any Sorc "worth their salt" will understand is a double-edged sword in small-scale.
Ontop of that, AM/Shaman get tactics like Divine Fury, and Searing Pain/Bunch o' Waaagh actually benefits from High Magic, potentially adding another +25% damage.

Sulorie wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:26 am

I want to add, that even average Joe understands something different, when reading "burst", than you.

There's a reason average Joe is merely average.

I think a lot of people are looking at different builds and relating it to the class as a whole... they see a semi-decent tanky shaman with full armor talis and FS/wounds/toughness renown and think every shaman is like this. Or they see a dps shammy killing a squishier target and think every shaman has this kind of dps. But when they see the WL'/WH's/SW's... 1-2 shotting shammies it's just 'a bad shaman', or 'undergeared' shaman because of cognitive bias.

I also think there's a bit of overestimation regarding AM/shaman's dps.. I don't see how anyone can seriously consider them to be on par with a Sorc/BW. Have you seen Bombling's dps stats on the construct? That's what a BW can do... 2.7k dps. Find me a shaman or AM that can do even half that..

Caduceus wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 10:36 am

Crumbs wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:19 pm

Because the manner in which they deal their damage is not comparable,

Disagreed.

Crumbs wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:19 pm

their entire playstyle and their situations in which they perform best at, are not comparable either, neither are their alternate specs OR their mechanics. The whole idea of comparing/balancing one or the other by looking at these two classes doesn't make sense.

I can see no reason why the classes in their RDPS role shouldn't be compared to one another.

Crumbs wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:19 pm

So you're going to show me the difference between 1 of their many instant DD damage abilities vs AMs primary DD that has no filler (other than DoT reapplication) with a 16sec cd? n1 mate.

This is just wrong. Hand of Ruin isn't an instant DD ability, nor does Searing Touch have 16 seconds CD without Khaine's Touch.

Comparing them at base level they're identical except for the fact that Searing Touch inexplicably deals 1 more base damage.

And no filler? Not true. AM/Shaman get their version of Gloomburst (Fury of Asuryan/Big Waaagh!), Heal debuff, Storm of Cronos/'Scuse me! Wanna compare these to the Sorc's arsenal?

Crumbs wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:19 pm

All you need to understand is that sorc bursts 2-3x harder than AM backloaded, frontloaded whateverthefuckloaded mate, it's the burst damage that it deals that makes up for its weakness in dot damage.

2-3x harder? Nonsense.

Sorc can, in glass cannon build under perfect circumstances, reliably pull 10k burst.

AM/Shaman can get around 7-8k burst.

Sorc bursts more, no doubt, but for the reasons I have already shared there are good reasons for that. The question is whether AM/Shaman should be able to burst like this considering all the tools at their disposal that the Sorc lacks, and the lack of a mechanic that kills them.

Then there's the obvious problem of taking a glass cannon sorc into ranked 6v6.

But honestly, I never intended ranked 6v6 to be the focus of this discussion. AM/Shaman isn't OP in that setting. The reason it came up is because people suggested AM/Shaman was unplayable in ranked and used it as an excuse for why AM/Shaman should be OP in small-scale, which I wholeheartedly disagreed with.

Crumbs wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:19 pm

Mic drop cya later bud

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Caduceus wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 10:36 am

Crumbs wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:19 pm

Because the manner in which they deal their damage is not comparable,

Disagreed.

Crumbs wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:19 pm

their entire playstyle and their situations in which they perform best at, are not comparable either, neither are their alternate specs OR their mechanics. The whole idea of comparing/balancing one or the other by looking at these two classes doesn't make sense.

I can see no reason why the classes in their RDPS role shouldn't be compared to one another.

Crumbs wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:19 pm

So you're going to show me the difference between 1 of their many instant DD damage abilities vs AMs primary DD that has no filler (other than DoT reapplication) with a 16sec cd? n1 mate.

This is just wrong. Hand of Ruin isn't an instant DD ability, nor does Searing Touch have 16 seconds CD without Khaine's Touch.

Comparing them at base level they're identical except for the fact that Searing Touch inexplicably deals 1 more base damage.

And no filler? Not true. AM/Shaman get their version of Gloomburst (Fury of Asuryan/Big Waaagh!), Heal debuff, Storm of Cronos/'Scuse me! Wanna compare these to the Sorc's arsenal?

Crumbs wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:19 pm

All you need to understand is that sorc bursts 2-3x harder than AM backloaded, frontloaded whateverthefuckloaded mate, it's the burst damage that it deals that makes up for its weakness in dot damage.

2-3x harder? Nonsense.

Sorc can, in glass cannon build under perfect circumstances, reliably pull 10k burst.

AM/Shaman can get around 7-8k burst.

Sorc bursts more, no doubt, but for the reasons I have already shared there are good reasons for that. The question is whether AM/Shaman should be able to burst like this considering all the tools at their disposal that the Sorc lacks, and the lack of a mechanic that kills them.

Then there's the obvious problem of taking a glass cannon sorc into ranked 6v6.

But honestly, I never intended ranked 6v6 to be the focus of this discussion. AM/Shaman isn't OP in that setting. The reason it came up is because people suggested AM/Shaman was unplayable in ranked and used it as an excuse for why AM/Shaman should be OP in small-scale, which I wholeheartedly disagreed with.

Crumbs wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:19 pm

Mic drop cya later bud

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Reasons this reasons that, point is sorc is the real heavy rdps here with faster and burstier rotations (like you already agreed) we not looking at the reasons here, those are obvious. I don't have a complaint about sorc, I'm cool with both. Just chill on comparing these two classes, for real.

Show me that 7-8k burst from an AM, not spread over 3-4 seconds after they'd peppered them with 4-5GCDs of dots and debuffs, show me the exact timestamp damage numbers they can achieve within 1 second with a screenshot, or there's nothing left to discuss here. Also you said the sorc was pulling 10k reliably with XYZ build, what build was the AM running? Little details like that tell me how much you really know.

And your reasons were "waaa AM deals too much damage loOk aT tHiS dOt" or "AM doesn't kill himself but has high damage unlike sorc who is the premier no.1 highest single target timestamp burst in the game and literally **** globals cunts left and right every 6-7seconds"
You just admitted sorc bursts more, you haven't worked out yet by how much more, and how many more direct damage abities they get to use on the move. Most AM don't take storm of cronos, and that's on a 30sec CD.
Nobody uses searing touch as dps AM without the tactic so tell me again what instant DD filler they have that isn't (non cast on move) fury of asuryan (without sorc crit chance or damage)or the dots I mentioned before? (Without literally individually naming the dots I am talking about again) so ask the crackhead next door to remind you what you're talking about idk.

They don't compare mate, I'm done whether or not a door hits me, if I see another reply you're getting mentally assigned the same place as that shaman that couldn't understand why he wasn't a shield dok.

Crumbs wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:20 pm

Reasons this reasons that, point is sorc is the real heavy rdps here with faster and burstier rotations (like you already agreed) we not looking at the reasons here, those are obvious.

Of course we are looking at reasons. We are looking at reasons why AM/Shaman should get to do this level of damage and still maintain the amount of utility and (self-)healing that they do, and what the implications are for small-scale PvP. That's been the whole point behind this discussion, but since you interjected half way without reading the rest I'm guessing you must've missed it.

Crumbs wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:20 pm

Show me that 7-8k burst from an AM, not spread over 3-4 seconds after they'd peppered them with 4-5GCDs of dots and debuffs, show me the exact timestamp damage numbers they can achieve within 1 second with a screenshot, or there's nothing left to discuss here. Also you said the sorc was pulling 10k reliably with XYZ build, what build was the AM running? Little details like that tell me how much you really know.

I'm not going to play this game with you. You know that no matter what screenshots I will post, you will find some excuse as to why they are not valid, as every one has done so far when they tried bringing numbers into the discussion and got them thrown back into their face.

If you want more numbers it's your turn to bring something to the table.

Crumbs wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:20 pm

And your reasons were "waaa AM deals too much damage loOk aT tHiS dOt" or "AM doesn't kill himself but has high damage unlike sorc who is the premier no.1 highest single target timestamp burst in the game and literally **** globals cunts left and right every 6-7seconds"

Again, you don't even know why comparisons between individual spells became part of the discussion, because you did not read it from the start.

The fact of the matter is, is that a single Transfer Force puts out more damage/healing than 3 Sorc DoTs combined.

That is one of many reasons why AM/Shaman is broken in small-scale.

Crumbs wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:20 pm

Most AM don't take storm of cronos, and that's on a 30sec CD.

Then they are fools, considering it debuffs their primary and only damage stat for 20 seconds in an AoE. They don't even need to spend a tactic slot on it, like Sorc!

Crumbs wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:20 pm

They don't compare mate, I'm done whether or not a door hits me, if I see another reply you're getting mentally assigned the same place as that shaman that couldn't understand why he wasn't a shield dok.

Off you go then.

Caduceus wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:38 pm

Crumbs wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:20 pm

Reasons this reasons that, point is sorc is the real heavy rdps here with faster and burstier rotations (like you already agreed) we not looking at the reasons here, those are obvious.

Of course we are looking at reasons. We are looking at reasons why AM/Shaman should get to do this level of damage and still maintain the amount of utility and (self-)healing that they do, and what the implications are for small-scale PvP. That's been the whole point behind this discussion, but since you interjected half way without reading the rest I'm guessing you must've missed it.

Crumbs wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:20 pm

Show me that 7-8k burst from an AM, not spread over 3-4 seconds after they'd peppered them with 4-5GCDs of dots and debuffs, show me the exact timestamp damage numbers they can achieve within 1 second with a screenshot, or there's nothing left to discuss here. Also you said the sorc was pulling 10k reliably with XYZ build, what build was the AM running? Little details like that tell me how much you really know.

I'm not going to play this game with you. You know that no matter what screenshots I will post, you will find some excuse as to why they are not valid, as every one has done so far when they tried bringing numbers into the discussion and got them thrown back into their face.

If you want more numbers it's your turn to bring something to the table.

Crumbs wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:20 pm

And your reasons were "waaa AM deals too much damage loOk aT tHiS dOt" or "AM doesn't kill himself but has high damage unlike sorc who is the premier no.1 highest single target timestamp burst in the game and literally **** globals cunts left and right every 6-7seconds"

Again, you don't even know why comparisons between individual spells became part of the discussion, because you did not read it from the start.

The fact of the matter is, is that a single Transfer Force puts out more damage/healing than 3 Sorc DoTs combined.

That is one of many reasons why AM/Shaman is broken in small-scale.

Crumbs wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:20 pm

Most AM don't take storm of cronos, and that's on a 30sec CD.

Then they are fools, considering it debuffs their primary and only damage stat for 20 seconds in an AoE. They don't even need to spend a tactic slot on it, like Sorc!

Crumbs wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:20 pm

They don't compare mate, I'm done whether or not a door hits me, if I see another reply you're getting mentally assigned the same place as that shaman that couldn't understand why he wasn't a shield dok.

Off you go then.

Doesn't matter what you're saying, nobody is agreeing. That's because you're blowing smoke out of your ass. And you're still on about the DoT lmao.

It's not about what I will say after you post a screenshot mate, you had a paragraph written down but all I read was "I don't have one and can't produce one" because again - butt smoke.

Crumbs wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:32 pm

Doesn't matter what you're saying, nobody is agreeing.

They're entitled to being wrong. And weren't you leaving?