Archmage/Shaman

[Arbich]

Transfer Force is a 24 seconds dot. You yourself set the premise thats in group play and enemies and allies know what to do (please not another strawman strike here ). Bleed fer me is the same spell. If you are nit-picking you can actually say that the shaman version is slightly superior (I let you find out why).
The thing is, in a small scale setting the healers will cleanse whenever possible. And as you might know, chillwind has a nice second effect and no cooldown, transfer force has.

None of this is any justification for why AM/Shaman should have such a powerful DoT.

Mind you, this is only one of the many options AM/Shaman get.

And Chillwind does not have any secondary effects by default, except for proccing Backlash, but I'm not sure how that would help your case.

You were talking about single target damage and in a single target environment chillwind has a secondary effect (lets say in 95% of all cases, there may be some specific group setups where its not a valid option, but I cant think about any at the moment).
Actually your point might qualify for a strawman argument.

I thought I already made the point why transfer force isn´t that uber spell?! Unbelievable that we talk about transfer force.
If transfer force were that strong, covering the dot would be quite hard/impossible, because zealots would slot their tactic, doks would use their morale and choppas and blackorcs would use cooldown decreaser (last 3 are the reason why shaman version might be slightly better, but still not even close to OP^^). To combat this mediocre every 3 seconds dot/hot tick. So it would never run the full duration, so your "math" is pointless.
I mean, even that you look at potential total damage instead of dps... come on...

[Caduceus]

You were talking about single target damage and in a single target environment chillwind has a secondary effect (lets say in 95% of all cases, there may be some specific group setups where its not a valid option, but I cant think about any at the moment).
Actually your point might qualify for a strawman argument.

This is just incoherent. Specify what "secondary effect" you are talking about.

I thought I already made the point why transfer force isn´t that uber spell?! Unbelievable that we talk about transfer force.
If transfer force were that strong, covering the dot would be quite hard/impossible, because zealots would slot their tactic, doks would use their morale and choppas and blackorcs would use cooldown decreaser (last 3 are the reason why shaman version might be slightly better, but still not even close to OP^^). To combat this mediocre every 3 seconds dot/hot tick. So it would never run the full duration, so your "math" is pointless.
I mean, even that you look at potential total damage instead of dps... come on...

Ok, so I'll play your game. You want to talk about DPS, we'll talk about DPS.

Going off base numbers;

Chillwind, 432 dmg in 9 seconds = 48 dps

Transfer Force, 1072 dmg in 24 seconds = 44 dps and 66 healing per second.

And this doesn't even take into account the fact that Transfer Force does vastly more damage per GCD.

[Arbich]

Ok, so I'll play your game. You want to talk about DPS, we'll talk about DPS.

Going off base numbers;

Chillwind, 432 dmg in 9 seconds = 48 dps

Transfer Force, 1072 dmg in 24 seconds = 44 dps and 66 healing per second.

And this doesn't even take into account the fact that Transfer Force does vastly more damage per GCD.

You take nothing into account. Not the buff to the spells when you put points in the tree (sorc gets more, especially when we take your first example with absorb vitality into consideration). Not the class mechanic of sorc. Try again.

The second (important!) effect of chillwind is the spirit resi debuff, when you take the tactic (which you usually should).

[Caduceus]

You take nothing into account. Not the buff to the spells when you put points in the tree (sorc gets more, especially when we take your first example with absorb vitality into consideration). Not the class mechanic of sorc. Try again.

Incorrect. The numbers I shared when I compared Absorb Vitality to Transfer Force came from my own Sorc and AM, and that is with intelligence roughly capped and the Calamity Tree almost maxed out. So your assertion that Sorc somehow benefits more from putting points into the trees is complete nonsense.

Furthermore, any damage that Dark Magic may add to a Sorcs damage comes at a massive cost; Backlash.

But even if we assume that Dark Magic gives a net benefit, that still doesn't explain why Transfer Force produces more than TWICE the amount of damage/healing done. And then consider that AM/Shaman get this FOR FREE!

The second (important!) effect of chillwind is the spirit resi debuff, when you take the tactic (which you usually should).

That is only gained through a tactic, so it shouldn't be taken into account when comparing skills one-on-one.

Taking tactics into consideration is only going to muddy the waters, but do you really want to start taking AM/Shaman's Divine Fury, +25% Damage versus anything the Sorc gets? Or shall we maybe take Master of Force, +10% spell crit into consideration? Or maybe Khaine's Touch, that makes AM's Searing Touch much better than Sorc's Hand of Ruin?

I don't think you want to go there.

[Arbich]

You take nothing into account. Not the buff to the spells when you put points in the tree (sorc gets more, especially when we take your first example with absorb vitality into consideration). Not the class mechanic of sorc. Try again.

Incorrect. The numbers I shared when I compared Absorb Vitality to Transfer Force came from my own Sorc and AM, and that is with intelligence roughly capped and the Calamity Tree almost maxed out. So your assertion that Sorc somehow benefits more from putting points into the trees is complete nonsense.

Furthermore, any damage that Dark Magic may add to a Sorcs damage comes at a massive cost; Backlash.

But even if we assume that Dark Magic gives a net benefit, that still doesn't explain why Transfer Force produces more than TWICE the amount of damage/healing done. And then consider that AM/Shaman get this FOR FREE!

Now you are arguing for the sake of arguing. Thread close incoming
How was I incorrect? I mean I was quoting your numbers:
Chillwind, 432 dmg
Transfer Force, 1072 dmg
That are the basic numbers from the career builder. Almost every ability is tied to a specific skill tree. If you put points in the skill tree, you buff these abilities (more dmg/healing/absorb,buff,debuff). Thats the case for every class. Based on this, I was just saying that sorc will put more points in the chillwind tree (not neccessarily up to absorb vitality, but you came up with this earlier) than dps AM will put into transfer force tree.

[Caduceus]

Now you are arguing for the sake of arguing. Thread close incoming
How was I incorrect? I mean I was quoting your numbers:
Chillwind, 432 dmg
Transfer Force, 1072 dmg
That are the basic numbers from the career builder. Almost every ability is tied to a specific skill tree. If you put points in the skill tree, you buff these abilities (more dmg/healing/absorb,buff,debuff). Thats the case for every class. Based on this, I was just saying that sorc will put more points in the chillwind tree (not neccessarily up to absorb vitality, but you came up with this earlier) than dps AM will put into transfer force tree.

You must have a short memory.

How does this relate to AM's Transfer Force (Shaman's Bleed Fer' Me is comparable, I would assume), which, as I have sought to point out, is arguably one of the strongest spells in game. It is easily able to deal upwards of 2k damage for the cost of one GCD, while also healing 150% of that damage, resulting in a delta of 5k damage points.

For the sake of argument, let's compare that to some Sorc DoTs (at high rr):
- Chillwind; ~800 - 900 damage.
- Ice Spikes; ~1.3k - 1.4k damage, at 65ft.
- Absorb Vitality; 1.0k - 1.1.k damage, healing 100% of damage, resulting in a delta of 2k damage points. 13 point tactic.

None of these even scratch the effectiveness of Transfer Force. In fact, all three combine into a delta of 4.3k damage points, which is still less than a single Transfer Force.

But sure buddy, I'll play your game again.

Even with ZERO points in the Path of Vaul Transfer Force will deal upwards of 1.6k damage, resulting in a delta of 4.0k damage points (even ignoring tactics like Divine Fury), which is still DOUBLE that of Absorb Vitality with 14 points in the Path of Calamity.

We don't even need to go that far. Even the BASE DAMAGE of Transfer Force results in 3.0k damage points, which is 50% more than Absorb Vitality on an int-capped Sorc!


With your every attempt at changing the rules of our conversation it becomes more apparent you're just grasping at straws, probably in some attempt to save face. Quit slithering, little snake.

[Sulorie]

At which point you add crit dmg mechanic to your calculation?

I thought we are not talking about 1vs1 here and yet you assume that the backlash of sorc is a "massive cost".

You sound like someone talking top-down out of experience, which makes the whole situation even more funny but actually nothing you say holds ground inside the game, therefore almost all, if not all here oppose your viewpoint. At some point people won't bother respond to you.
Maybe then you can feel like having won the discussion.

[Caduceus]

At which point you add crit dmg mechanic to your calculation?

I thought we are not talking about 1vs1 here and yet you assume that the backlash of sorc is a "massive cost".

Any decent Sorc that plays small-scale knows Dark Magic is a double-edged sword.

But if you believe Dark Magic can account for Absorb Vitality dealing half the damage of Transfer Force, then lets hear it. I'm all ears.

You sound like someone talking top-down out of experience, which makes the whole situation even more funny but actually nothing you say holds ground inside the game, therefore almost all, if not all here oppose your viewpoint.

Yeah, gaslighting isn't going to work on me.

I think I'm the only one engaged in this conversation that actually plays both Sorc and AM. And I'm also the only one providing some raw numbers to back things up. It's your turn to bring something to the table.

[Crumbs]

At which point you add crit dmg mechanic to your calculation?

I thought we are not talking about 1vs1 here and yet you assume that the backlash of sorc is a "massive cost".

Any decent Sorc that plays small-scale knows Dark Magic is a double-edged sword.

But if you believe Dark Magic can account for Absorb Vitality dealing half the damage of Transfer Force, then lets hear it. I'm all ears.

You sound like someone talking top-down out of experience, which makes the whole situation even more funny but actually nothing you say holds ground inside the game, therefore almost all, if not all here oppose your viewpoint.

Yeah, gaslighting isn't going to work on me.

I think I'm the only one engaged in this conversation that actually plays both Sorc and AM. And I'm also the only one providing some raw numbers to back things up. It's your turn to bring something to the table.

Yeah I got one, sorc deals much higher instant burst damage on shorter rotations than AM. Don't compare dots from sorc who the **** cares about their dot.

Sorc shits all over AM burst

[Caduceus]

Yeah I got one, sorc deals much higher instant burst damage on shorter rotations than AM.

As they should, considering;

A. Sorc is a dedicated DPS class, and AM/Shaman isn't.
B. Sorc has a class mechanic that kills them.
C. AM/Shaman has far superior utility and self-healing.

But in reality AM/Shaman isn't that far behind Sorc at all.

Don't compare dots from sorc who the **** cares about their dot.

All Sorcs that care about backloading their burst, like any DPS should.

But this is an empty argument. So what, AM/Shaman should have DoT that is far superior to anything Sorc can bring to the table because "DoTs don't matter"? Nonsense.

Furthermore, this issue doesn't limit itself to DoTs. If you'd like I'll happily treat you to a comparison between Hand of Ruin and Searing Touch to show you which one is superior.