Return of Reckoning

Charon wrote:

Penril wrote:Boring is not the same as weak.

I dont neglect his support. But if you going to nerf this kind of abilities, what will left. Maybe its my personal perspective (mostly from sc ) but, Knight recently is last played order tank. i wonder why if hi is so good like everyone think.

PS. aside from snb. in my opinion kotbs 2h version works currently somehow not becouse his abilities but very strong beastlord proc but its different story

No, 2h ch/kobs work because they have 10 crit debuff and 10 sec CD punt like an IB while s+b dont. Which dont change whatever you increase as second mastery. In case.of chosen he only have 1 main tactic for 2h and one for s+b plus punt one.
Kobs had atm have 2 main tactics if he want due having this stacking heal buff.
He dont need to ioose tactic for self defense so he can also take it with out loose nothing,

Crit, snare, punt, then you have a free slot. For another supporting tactic.

A lot of eggs in one basket pretty easy to get with very few limitation or critical choises involved
I dont care for chosen situation per se just but just as exemple:
Chosen have a lot of limitation and critical choices when he have to spec; why kobs should not? Even new CS as old one require crit investiment and not only just slot the tactic and go...
Again this is an exemple and a question, appart the value these tactics do not require any real build investoiment , pick heal aura is not a build investiment because auras do not influeces that much your build as your weapon or renown spent and can be covered by other classes ( all stats aura...../ resistence one / cast time increase )
Also as stated that aura regen ap which is then make it worth as an ap aura which is not useless and is yet again another egg in the bascket.

-No critical choise
-No deep investiment require for any of these tactics
-all tactics stack additionaly
-Extreme.flexibility
-all these things also work generally vs all classes ( so no situationality)
-extreme easy acces to multiple things per above build
(group ap regen, aoe crit debuff/group crit buff, Long punt, aoe snare, aoe stag, runefang best stats buffing tactic in game ( +400 to stats ) or drop 1 tactic for heal buff.

Why bring ib when kobs can do Everything an ib can do? (Ap regen is an IB thing) and sm will cover the rest....
Some say regen aura is useless i say is op ( kobs one) or at least unfair since kobs is not only providing ap to himself ( proc on guard defense ap regen....) but also to the whole group, plus that is his second ap management skill without had slot even a single tactic (armor buff regen ap...) So premade in " small scale" don't use it? Not the point here, glory mastery is in poor condition?? noted ...but the tactic must be bring down to match how.many synergy the class can internally have without be exploitable, for kobs have a tremendous ammount focussed tools all in one build. To avoid another choppa case where a mastery is let empty for quite the time a nerf value can wait a better rework of glory as a whole but that's it no sad tears there.

rmpl wrote:1. Identify the issue.
Focused Mending is a very powerful zero effort tactic

I refute the premisse of this. By comparison, in numbers, I do not think it is actually ''very powerful''.

A)If we take IB/BG 7 points mastery, it heals debuff for 50%. For discussion, take a RP group heal. it heals around 1k for easy math on 6 people.
i) with FM, it heals 6x1150, so 6900 instead of 6000. So an increase of 900. Use 2 healers, the increase is magnified to 1800.
ii) Have a IB/BG debuff that same healer, the heal gets chopped down to 500x6, so 3000. For a difference of 3k, much much greater than the 900 reported for FM.

B) If we take BO's big swing. Increasing build time by 50% on Big swing + big brawling (also 7 points mastery). Again vs RP/zealot, potential effect is 6k heal for 2.5s cast, for a 2400 heal output per second. With added build time, 6k for 3.7s cast, means a 1620 heal output per second, on cast. Effectively chopping down the healing from casts by 30%. More than the 15% knight gives.

C) Intimidating repent for dok/WP. AoE detaunt, 7 points mastery. Reduce all damage by 50%, CD = to duration. Massively more powerful than 15% heal increaser, as it can mitigate thousands of damage per seconds when under focus. Alive healer due to 50% AoE detaunt is much better than 15% heal.

I understand that knight's FM is passive, hence it grants 15%. BO, IB, BG requires skill + position to activate but the effects are orders of magnitudes greater. Same goes for dok/WP AoE detaunts.

Conclusion : for a 7 points tactic, FM is not powerful compared to other 7 points tactic that can be used to increase or mitigate healing production. It's just easier to use. So the solution might reside in increasing usage difficulty, not in reducing the number it provides or increasing how high it is in the mastery tree.

A) IB/BG heal debuffs are awesome, but you have to catch the healers. This can be quite difficult against good premades with healers constantly kiting you and tanks keeping you CC'd. The IB debuff probably gets cleansed immediately (and Punishing Knock has a 5s CD). BG heal debuff is better though, being spammable. As for large scale zerg/bombing action FM is definitely more useful.

KotBS just... stands there and his group immediately gains 15% extra healing. That is the part that i am not happy with; they should at least need to work a little for this buff. For example, Chosen always needed to stack crit in order to make CS work, therefore neglecting other useful stats. Not KotBS; they don't need to stack anything. On top of that they have Runefang/Emperor's Champion boosting their stats even more which lets them use any talismans they want/use renown points on anything they desire.

B) BO disorient is 25%, not 50%. It also has a 10s CD.

C) Dok/WP AoE detaunt was removed for backline healers for several months. Honestly, after all this time, I am convinced they need it. Feel free to make a proposal though if you think the CD needs to be adjusted as to not have a 100% uptime.


So far, my thoughts are:

- Mighty Soul and Unbalanced Attack could use some love.
- Focused Mending will be changed. Either in the way it is delivered (requiring something from the KotBS; a parry, a disrupt, a crit, anything) or strength/position (not my preference).

Penril wrote:BO disorient is 25%, not 50%. It also has a 10s CD.

IB/BG heal debuffs are awesome, but you have to catch the healers. This can be quite difficult against good premades with healers constantly kiting you and tanks keeping you CC'd. The IB debuff probably gets cleansed immediately (and Punishing Knock has a 5s CD). BG heal debuff is better though, being spammable. As for large scale zerg/bombing action FM is definitely more useful.

Dok/WP AoE detaunt was removed for backline healers for several months. Honestly, after all this time, I am convinced they need it. Feel free to make a proposal though if you think the CD needs to be adjusted as to not have a 100% uptime.

KotBS just... stands there and his group immediately gains 15% extra healing. That is the part that i am not happy with; they should at least need to work a little for this buff. For example, Chosen always needed to stack crit in order to make CS work, therefore neglecting other useful stats. Not KotBS; they don't need to stack anything. On top of that they have Runefang/Emperor's Champion boosting their stats even more which lets them use any talismans they want/use renown points on anything they desire.

So far, my thooughts are:

- Mighty Soul and Unbalanced Attack could use some love.
- Focused Mending will be changed. Either in the way it is delivered (requiring something from the KotBS; a parry, a disrupt, a crit, anything) or power/position.

some point-out

-kobs is order side not destru so consideration on SM not BO.... sword master cast time increase is st but 50% which make aura redundancy (chance set back < 50% cast time increase and is also for free...)and not reliable (also no CD for SM one). And even if it was 25% the BO is free ....why waste 1 aura? you will snare target aoe anyway.
-IB/BG heal debuff is core of we/wh and also specable by choppa/wl what's the point there they can bring it and free 1 tactic of bg/ib
-dok/wp detaunt dont stack with guard , appart class per se consideration if talk is not good for guard and both sides have guard and both sides have dok/wp then is not good for their detaunt either

That setback aura is horrible and needs love too. Does anyone actually use it?

Penril wrote: C) Dok/WP AoE detaunt was removed for backline healers for several months. Honestly, after all this time, I am convinced they need it. Feel free to make a proposal though if you think the CD needs to be adjusted as to not have a 100% uptime.

I
AoE detaunt has been put back into the game mate.

xtc1999 wrote:

Penril wrote: C) Dok/WP AoE detaunt was removed for backline healers for several months. Honestly, after all this time, I am convinced they need it. Feel free to make a proposal though if you think the CD needs to be adjusted as to not have a 100% uptime.

I
AoE detaunt has been put back into the game mate.

I know. What i tried to say (and failed) was that after testing no- AoE detaunt for several months i am convinced they need it.

On 2h kotbs, at least, focused mending is not zero trade off. Runefang is a must for all kotbs while slice through, long punt and 10% crit are probably more useful. In addition, you have to drop staggering impact or the knockdown to spec for it.
I honestly don't see the room for it, unless there is a second knight in the group

Thanks for your feedback so far. As per the new rules, the discussion is with me and therefore I think this post might prompt others to reply to you. So I will spoiler it for now and let you know if/when we can discuss it.

Would Mighty Soul be more desirable if we added an Elemental debuff to, say, Unbalancing Attack? Value would be the same as Shaman's Scuse me!.

Order lacks a decent Ele debuff, specially now that SM's Heaven's Blade no longer stacks with KotBS aura. This would be a nice debuff to have for groups based on BWs and DPS RP (i know, i know...).

What else would you do to Glory/Mighty Soul if this is not enough? Tell me.