[Review] [BW/Sorc] Mechanic

[navis]

Another “balancing” change would be to limit mechanic production to spells that actually damage a target. So you can’t just spam Targetless AoE to sit at full mechanic before the fight even starts...

Actually, this something maybe worth looking into because right now also defended against attacks also build Comb, IMHO they shouldn't.
That might be a worthwhile change/adjustment that isn't going to be too overly drastic.

The result would help to increase the time it takes to build combustion and not use enemy % defended (x type) to work agaisnt themselves.

[navis]

Spoiler:

I´ve followed this topic with half an eye and just wanted to add that while the mechanic is way too rewarding for no real risk

This IMO is the kind of mindset which simply does not translate to this class type.
The class is based around full combustion and if at full it is too much then that is what need be balanced.

Overall I find that Penril may be looking too hard to find *something* to change. Based on what I've read here I am not convinced he plays the class that much, if he does it is most likely only in a few specific playstyles.
1)always in premade or somewhere safe
2)never fight agaisnt good opponents
3)maybe should play Order pug first to make more accurate judgement.

The class does high DPS when positioned safely away from enemies. When in range of enemies they die in three seconds or less

I would recommend a class leader should be handling archetype balance which require more knowledge of the classes.

Declined. Also, you received a warning.

[navis]

Spoiler:

I but it is also fair to say that the skill level of the party you run with really determines how punishing the mechanic is.

thrown a heal onto a dps isnt anymore skill intensive that any other skill that makes up the bare minimum of party play

This is just plain ignorant statement.

You are no longer welcome in the BDF.

[lefze]

I feel like I need to say this again; we are not looking forward to nerfing these classes.

I play a Sorc. Mostly solo and in 6-man groups. I know that feeling when soloing and you are at like 40, 30, 20% health and no one is throwing you a HoT. You drink a heal pot and continue DPSing, and still no one throws you a HoT. You even consider getting Absorb Vitality (even though it gimsp your spec) and No. One. Throws. You. A. HoT.

Balance is not discussed for solo/pug play, but I am fully aware that just bigger backlash damage would pretty much only affect solo/pug players, and therefore is something at least I (can't talk for Torque and the other devs though) won't even consider.

I would prefer simply changing the values of the bonuses/backlash so you get the best ones in, i don't know, 71-90 range (possible even better than the current ones at 100) while increasing the backlash damage/chance considerably for the 91-100 range. Maybe we could even increase the crit chance/damage for everything under 70 as well.

How would it work? Well, you start at 0, and up to 70 you will be doing slightly more damage than you currently do. At 71, you do more damage/have more chance to crit than you currently do at 100. But if you get past 90, suddenly your crit/chance to crit drops back to 1-10 values, AND your backlash proc chance goes up by a lot. However, all it takes is one Surging Pain to go back to 70-90 range and keep the best bonuses.

Would this nerf the class? Maybe... Even though your bonuses would be better at 70 than they currently are at 100, some might say this could break up your rotation. Then again, maybe new rotations (which include Surging Pain) would appear. Of course, all these ranges/crit chance/crit damage/backlash chance should be adjusted accordingly after several tests.

This is only my proposal as a player and has no more weight than any of your proposals. But I felt i needed to post it to, once again, make it perfectly clear: WE ARE NOT LOOKING TO NERF THESE CLASSES.

Similar to an earlier proposal, and I like it a lot, as long as you also give singletarget specs something meaningful to use to lower dark magic. Only having access to surging pain makes the playstyle weird and pretty odd, while dhar wind requires too specific circumstances to be a good choice for a main dumper. With the current kit this solution would only require one additional buttonpress per rotation/every other rotation, and would in my opinion not change anything really.

[Arbich]

I´ve followed this topic with half an eye and just wanted to add that while the mechanic is way too rewarding for no real risk

As Atropik already posted a few pages earier, Sorc/BW tooltip-damage is based around high combustion. So it isn´t really a buff, but a requirement to play the class.


Penrils proposal could work, but looks rather boring. I can´t see how you will integrate Scorced Earth in a single-damage-rotation. Which means you will waste 1-2 GCD to get back to the combustion you want and continue with your usual playstyle like now.

I would love to see all abilities given bonuses depending on amount of combustion. Some with a bonus at 50-75 combustion, some at 80+ combustion, maybe some getting base bonusses which decline with increasing combustion. But maybe this is too difficult to balance.

We could give the "finishers" in each tree a bonus based on combustion but in return you will lose all/a certain amount of combustion.

Remove AoE-part of Fireball Barrage at 0 combustion and make it dependent of combustion points.

Increase knockdown time from Stop, Droll and Roll dependent of combustion.

Make backdraft 9point ability, spreading flames 5point and annihilate 13point (maybe change tooltip-damage of abilities). Make the AoE-range of annihilate dependent of amount of combustion.

[Penril]

It wasn't exactly a proposal. It was brainstorming, and me TRYING to make you guys UNDERSTAND that we are not looking to nerf these classes.

[Serrow]

It wasn't exactly a proposal. It was brainstorming, and me TRYING to make you guys UNDERSTAND that we are not looking to nerf these classes.

I think most people that have taken the time to read your posts understand that! It's just we're finding ourselves in a constant tug of war between people who simply want to up the negative effects of the mechanic versus people trying to come up with new ways to incentivize managing it.

I played both BW and Sorc back in the day and I'm in the process of playing both up to R40 again now (pretty much exclusively solo) and I can't say I see any way to change the mechanic without making the class weaker - unless a total revamp of the class' abilities are on the table. I do like what you brainstormed on paper, but I think it would translate to overall clunkier gameplay as people are forced to incorporate an AoE dump into their ST rotation to maintain optimal damage.

The other complication here is the desire to stick with lore as mentioned earlier. The mechanic is actually very fitting for that - this idea that as the Winds of Magic coalesce around your character you become this nigh-unstoppable conduit of magical energy burning down/blowing everything around you to pieces, while inadvertently cooking yourself off in the process.

Sadly though, with Sorcs/BWs as squishy as they currently are I agree that simply ramping up Backlash would be detrimental and not the solution. I'm of the mindset that unless the team wants to tackle rebalancing pretty much the entire toolkit (baseline damage, AP cost, cooldowns, etc) then any tampering with the bonuses/drawbacks is going to do more harm than good.

[Soulcheg]

How about making all stats constant number somthn between 0% and 100% heat, and remove Combustion/Dhar Magic completely?

[areanda]

Ive seen a couple of proposals of misscast .. wich is the worst idea so far. . Presume u get a Wl against ya or a sw or even a wh .. the Wl 1 shots ya the sw alr disrupts high and the wh has the disrupt skill throw ur misscasts along wit all the disrupts. . Ten u better be ready for mass reroll magus /mara /Wl /engi

[ragafury]

Ive seen a couple of proposals of misscast .. wich is the worst idea so far. . Presume u get a Wl against ya or a sw or even a wh .. the Wl 1 shots ya the sw alr disrupts high and the wh has the disrupt skill throw ur misscasts along wit all the disrupts. . Ten u better be ready for mass reroll magus /mara /Wl /engi

besides that, it makes this dodge / disrupt / avoid fest even more luck based and unreliable for BW / Sorc.
2/3 players anyway invest in Deft Defender because it's so point efficient. the rest goes full Kappa and skills Str or Int.

on top: nothing is worse for DPS output than a "miss" or disrupt. on ST, majority of the combo is rip, and the timinig window can already be cruel.

there exists no real stat to counter a misscast on your end, even IF you would want to nullify the effect. can only minimize disrupt chance on your target, at least I'm not aware of any stats like that.
every other class that does than at least reliable dmg is better...
with an improved backslash you at least have the oppurtunity to stack wounds if you feel in danger by your mechanic and buy reaction time.


I still say, instead of gimping the class with stuff like that, redo a working spender mechanic, if that's not enough ramp up backslash, if that's than even not enough ramp up backslash on 100 really extreme. but doing a misscast is a really feelsbadman for a DPS class or a selfstacking healdebuff on a glasscanon class which usually dies vs 2 melees and a tank with champs challenge compared to other classes who can survive those extremes.

In small roam grps I'm already at the point where I prefer every other Destro MDPS over a Sorc.
Just because of my personal "fun and enjoyment" level as a tank...