[Shaman/AM] Stacks Converter/Wiper

[Miszczu5647]

I don't see the need to add what OP suggests, main reason being that with current state of AM/sham mechanic and whole class, it would be like building something on a swamp.
Sure it might help the class tiny bit, but the main problem remains that the mechanic just doesn't work at all and would need a total redesign to make the class into a functional hybrid that does both dmg and heals to perform efficiently.
Like why add extra layers to a broken mechanic - rather save the energy now, wait for client control, then rework AM/shaman and then possibly consider "plan switch" to the class.

Point of this thread is not build something but create idea. And when Team will be ready (client control) and will create fundaments of the class then maybe... just maybe our idea will be something they will be able to put on those fundaments.

For now OP proposition have very bad benefits for the class:Team effort ratio. Nonetheless we should discuss it.

[live4treasure]

I don't see how this ability has "bad benefit" for the class or what team effort ratio even is in this context, but I'll just say that I think AM /Sham will be better class with this ability. If you don't like it on the basis that it promotes specialized play against hybridization, then as you've said yourself, to reach that goal you need a massive overhaul, which isn't currently possible. So, right now, with the class the way it is, which I personally don't think as bad, this ability is a great quality of life and gameplay change. Arguably a much needed one as well.

[Dabbart]

Swapping mechanic points over helps the Healer builds almost exclusively. As DPS you're still casting the occasional heal/bubble/rezz and 5 heal stacks as a DPS helps a bit, but it's not a game changer. Unless the intention is to just help DPS spec AM/Shams to life-tap, then my opening might be incorrect, but you'd still need to have 5 DPS stacks to swap over before you can get 1 empowered Life-Tap. This would seperate Healer/DPS away from hybridization even more than currently imo. As a healer, this helps a lot. It's basically a CT decrease/power increase similar to Focused Mind(minus all the CC stuff obviously).

In regards to CD timer: Considering HoTs/DoTs and CT heals/DPS, along with GCD, I think a figure of 2s between casts is a reasonable average for 5 casts to fill your mechanic, lowering this to 1.5s on the next 5 casts after using your Swap(yes this is being generous). That's 17.5s+ total(plus the proposed 1-2s cast time of the Swap), between "needed" uses of the proposed ability(Use the ability, 5 quick casts, then 5 normal casts to rebuild mechanic ready for swap). So any CD less than 20s basically means you use it on standard rotation. Not saying that would be a bad thing, just something to keep in mind. OP started with 1-2min CD, which illustrates the perceived strength of the ability. 1min would seem relatively balanced imo. Unless, the cast 5 then get 5 system is wanted as the go-to-play-style, then 20s is literally perfect.

Is that how we want the AM/Sham mechanic to function? Because that will be the go-to style, and players will become reliant upon it. I'm not opposed to it, as it would empower both of my current favorite classes, which are in need of it. But as said multiple times already, I would rather wait and see an extensive overhaul than apply small band-aids that make it "serviceable" and thereby wait longer for the overhaul, or make it even more complicated later.

This also does nothing for Hybrid spec. Life-tap rotation isn't 5 dps then 5 empowered lifetaps(DPS). That's a DPS build. Nor is it 5 heals, then 5 empowered heals. Thats a Healing build. Life-tap is based on juggling your mechanic. DPS then heal, then DPS, then heal, utilizing both aspects of the class. The original mechanic system actually worked better for this.

If we simply want to apply a band-aid to let healers/DPS somewhat take advantage of the class mechanic, why not go back to the original system(which if I recall had instant casts working just fine)? DPS AM/Shams get their instant rezz/grp heal back, Healers get an empowered DoT/DB stealer/instant ranged KB/silence and we sit back and wait for Client Control(or open another Proposal...)

It all depends on the direction that the Dev team wants to take the Mechanic in the first place.

[live4treasure]

It helps DPS a lot as well. 5 life taps coupled with at least 2-3 crits is significant damage. Moreover, it doesn't even have to be lifetaps. If you have the opportunity, it could be 5 radiant lances or brain busters. Getting 5 force stacks is extremely easy and is done by simply using the standard on-the-move rotation of applying your 3 dots and then your heal debuff, after which sham and AM can use their beam as an instant cast and you have your 5 stacks.

This mechanic as it is now is more meaningful and effective than it was with the original system. 5 spells with halved cast time and ap cost are much more effective then one instant cast spell. Giving an ability like this makes this mechanic even more flexible and impactful. Getting one instant cast damage spell on a healer has even less effect than 5 potential half ap spells. Similarly, one instant cast group heal far less effective than 5 half cast time and half ap cost heals.

Also, the life tap build doesn't have to juggle his mechanic all the time. It's still an intellect focused build and can put out damage when it needs to. There's nothing stopping it from doing that. Having mechanic swap simply gives the life tap healer more options to work with.

So, DoK and WP are going to be overhauled as well later, and they still got their bandaid. Why not take the bandaid now, and then discuss an overhaul later, when it's possible? I don't get why a perfectly reasonable idea is being rejected by multiple people on this thread, as if it will somehow impair the overhaul that may happen in several years time from now.

[Tesq]

Why not take the bandaid now, and then discuss an overhaul later, when it's possible?

they said it's a pain to code atm so that time it could be use for something which take less and solve more problems as a meccanics which cover most the problems these classes have (exept lifetap dependancy on dmg).

[live4treasure]

I see, thanks for clarifying that for me.

Well, I think that going back to the old mechanic will worsen the class overall. The way it is right now is far more satisfying and provides a lot more value. So, down the line, if the framework of the current mechanic is observed, then an ability like the one proposed here will be necesarry sooner or later, because flipping your stacks is beneficial to any kind of AM and allows them to utilize their mechanic in a way that's helpful to their specific build, rather than just sit on tranquility and force stacks with nowhere to use them.

[Dabbart]

So, you disagree with the OPs statement that it is currently beneficial for the Healer to ignore their mechanic? And yourself when you say sit with stacks and nowhere to use them? I’m confused in how the current system is so much better, especially with the issues regarding the Instant casts. How often do you want a full 5casts of the opposite type? Other than for this proposal, is the current mechanic system widely enjoyed by the AM/Sham community?

[Tesq]

So, you disagree with the OPs statement that it is currently beneficial for the Healer to ignore their mechanic? And yourself when you say sit with stacks and nowhere to use them? I’m confused in how the current system is so much better, especially with the issues regarding the Instant casts.

well i think it mean if you play full heal or full dps is better due max stack provide buff to what you are alresy spamming, so 5 stack for heals buff heals , compared to old meccanic that gone a bit better.
Tbh old meccanic was better if you played hybrid and this one if you go full off or full heal.

still is a false "better" , you just spam heals and get benefith for spam heal, op proposal would give a lazy solution (and hard to implement code wise) to swap point to play hybrid.

[live4treasure]

That's oversimplifying things quite a bit. What I'm saying is that both systems have pros and cons, and that the instant cast system has way less benefit to AM/Sham than the current one. Since you refer to a healer AM/Sham and myself specifically, which I take to mean DPS AM, I'll illustrate my point using them as the context for you.

Healer PoV:

If I'm a healer sitting at 5 stacks of tranquility with the old mechanic, I get to use an instant cast damage spell that does abysmal damage and will most likely be disrupted by absolutely anyone. It's a wasted gcd that has absolutely no effect, value or impact on whatever is going on. Even if that spell is a life tap, it still will not do anything even if by some miracle it doesn't get disrupted. Lets say that we have client control and add some disrupt strikethrough for when you have tranquility and we miraculously fixed life taps to be usable for pure healers in terms of healing output. Even then, for the cost of 5 tranquility points I get to instant cast only one spell. What this means is, with the old version of the mechanic, you're better off ignoring it, just like now.

With the current system, a healer sitting at 5 tranquility has the opportunity to cast 5 spells at half cast time and half ap cost. It's not really worthwhile to do so, however, because it doesn't benefit you in any real way. So, you ignore it. However, even then, there exists design space to create abilities like the one suggested by the OP that could actually utilize the class mechanic in a way that benefits the healer. I'm not saying I don't agree that the healer is currently better off ignoring his mechanic. That's true. What I'm saying, however, is that with the 1 point = half cast time and ap mechanic, you can create far more abilities that could allow the healer to make use of his tranquility points than you can with the old mechanic. An example would be abilities that exchange points of tranquility for force or just wipe your points clean, allowing you to extract benefit.

My PoV:

I play as a dps AM. Whenever I have force stacks, I can use them to make my healing a little bit more effective. My aoe heal goes for a bout 600 hp and my single target one heals for about 800. In the old iteration of the system, for 5 force stacks I would get to cast one single aoe or single target heal as an instant cast. Aka 5 force stacks = 600 aoe healing in an rvr scenario. Now lets look at the current system. 5 force stacks = 3000 aoe healing over 5 seconds. The way the system is now allows me to have a far greater impact on the situation than before. It's just straight up better. Yes, I know that I have to basically stand still and heal vs getting an instant cast before, but 3000 aoe healing vs 600 aoe healing is actually SOMEWHAT USEFUL in comparison.

Now if we look into the future, we can see that there's a variety of ways a DPS AM could benefit from this system. You could create abilities that wipe your mechanic points, allowing him to juggle between single target heals and life taps. You could create abilities that flip the mechanic points, allowing a DPS AM/Sham to do damage in quick succession, or a healer AM/Sham to do a whole lot of burst healing in a short window. It's just so much more impactful than a single instant cast spell that has very little effect.

That's my opinion on why the current system is so much better than the old one. It has more design space. It has more impact per point of Tranquility and Force. It's far more interesting in terms of gameplay, rather than just pushing a button with an instant cast ability that doesn't even do that much.

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As for hybrid play style, the previous system doesn't do anything for that. If you're a pure healer AM and you have 5 stacks of force, you get to cast a life tap or radiant lance that maybe will do 200 damage max if it doesn't get disrupted by some miracle. I don't know if you can call that a hybrid playstyle, because you could have used that time to throw a 2000 hp shield on someone or cast a hot that heals for more hp per tick than you just did in damage.

I feel much more a hybrid as a dps am now because the amount of healing I can put out is more if I want to commit to it. I can spam 5 aoe heals for my group, or even single target heals for a specific target and then juggle life tap and heals with ap drain. It feels far more hybridized than it did before, with just 1 weak heal.

[Tesq]

the previusly system allow you to cast more things in the same GCDs for exemple with:

dot, lifetap, dot, dot, you casted group heal in 1 gcd bascally do into 1 sec what would had requried 2,5 sec cast time; if you add another dot then the group heal became istant cast on the move.

i do agree the old system didnt be that good but simply because had wrong values and not ap/striketrough management on point spent. The old system rewamp (made faster ) for build up meccanin points would just solve all these problems.