[BG] 2h spec changes

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zabis
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[BG] 2h spec changes

Post#1 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:36 pm

Pre-patch: Torquemadra - "2h BG was overperforming and had too much available for minimal investment, the passive parry tactic was mitigating guard damage for 2h by a too high margin and was far too good for 3pts." This is very true.

Post-patch: 2h BG must now make more of a conscious decision to go offensive or defensive, but the penalties of the changes made seem too great.

Solution 1: Swap Wave of Scorn and Elite Training. Put Wave of Scorn at 9 in Anguish to mirror the IB tree, and Elite Training will then be in the defensive tree. With this change, BG will still have access to extra parry, but it will not be passive.

Solution 2: Put Anger Drives me at 7, but change the parry% to ~2%. With this change 2h BG will have access to extra parry, but not at an OP level. Feeding on Pain can be at 11 (but should be discussed in another proposal).

Solution 3: Monstrous Ruin can be mirrored to the IB Greataxe Mastery tactic. With this change it will give BG access to extra parry, but nowhere near the level of Anger Drives Me.
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dansari
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Re: [Blackguard] 2h spec changes

Post#2 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:33 pm

Closed June 15.

Swapping abilities between trees is not able to be done until client control, so swapping Wave of Scorn with Elite Training can't happen atm. Feel free to discuss the pros/cons, just know the stipulation.

Edit: mirroring Monstrous Ruin with Greataxe Mastery seems ridiculous given Monstrous Ruin is 3pt and Greataxe Mastery is 11.
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Tesq
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Re: [BG] 2h spec changes [Close Date June 15]

Post#3 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:46 am

for what i remember torq said 2h bg was nerfed cuz it done too many dmg while also being too much tanky; then it should had been nerfed the ST dmg (because the prob is all there since when you spam aoe in orvr you jimpo your parry ...) and not even the 2h aoe build for Orvr. Tactics are tactics and so limited in numbers, if you wanna do more dmg you should leave home a def tactics so instead nerf def builds , offensive stuff should had had been nerfed to the ground and bg would had spec more offensivly instead it was kill wBG max def capacity, in this way BG viability in ORVR was just kill outside of kite/gank (and thanks speed proc tactic for that ...otherwise...)

-Wave of scorn is ok where is atm because wave of scorn at the end is ok as alternative choice to CD; s+b bg dont really bring nothing otherwise and 2h bg bring alredy aoe dmg instead hold the line; so let pick only one between CD and aoe snare is fine: this is good enough i had to agree with the nerf.

-The only downside of the changes are that is impossible get parry tactic + CD + toughness tactic and Orvr builds suffer a lot from it. Tested and retested 2h bg was totally viable and competitive pre nerf with ch/bo, now is just bad as pre parry tactic was moved down.
The max parry achivable is the same as ch/IB/SM (hope someone not gona try make pass like if a 5% compensation for meccanics downside is op lol ) and most likely kobs with runfang tactic but for some kind of reason base avoidance tactic was moved up again INSTEAD nerf st damages.

-I only agree on put anger drives me back to 7 pt, which is the real problem here, where all these kind of stuff suppose to be , and not nerfed ...(where also is chosen tactic for 25%) and i myself suggested to put it in the very first bg buff thread we had long ago to not make it op with build shenanigans instead on 3pt. Putted there the buils is a rr 50 with options as rr 60/70 from 2h kd, wounds debuff tactic, 15% crit tactic etc and the fact that wave of scorn is an alternative pick to CD make it well rounded and also give a meaning to S+B which otherwise didnt had a lot.....and ... nerf murderous wrath dmg tooltips or generally speaking all st dmg skill for about 15-20 tooltiès.....
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mubbl
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Re: [BG] 2h spec changes [Close Date June 15]

Post#4 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:34 am

Why do you need that extra parry?
I have to admit it was a big nerf for bg but as tesq qouteted torque it was just silly op, i reached like 80% parry, if i wanted so, and still have near 40% with soft cap toughness and bubble etc.
Would be interesting to know if strikethrough affects your parry when applied by guard dmg? Anybody knows that?

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Tesq
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Re: [BG] 2h spec changes [Close Date June 15]

Post#5 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:24 am

mubbl wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:34 am
Why do you need that extra parry?
I have to admit it was a big nerf for bg but as tesq qouteted torque it was just silly op, i reached like 80% parry, if i wanted so, and still have near 40% with soft cap toughness and bubble etc.
Would be interesting to know if strikethrough affects your parry when applied by guard dmg? Anybody knows that?
it does not, tough why you should have less than 60-70% parry when going into orvr lake? in eu prime time a 2h bg just get cut out with out it. Even with that on you stil need full def tactics slots and m1 cleanse to survive and do something in WB.

look my bg full buffed with out 2h epic quest have like, 66 parry 30 dodge, 40 disrupt; these are normal avoidance values for any def tank and how you gona play a bg in orvr? full off and explode? How you gona guard with low parry cuz 40% is basically nothing; melee have that % not tanks...
Slayer gona ignore it 90% of time, pet striketrought feel like you are disarmed, guard dmg on a 2h tanks are damnit huge if less than 60% parry....There was a reason if it was the very first thing to be moved down and made more accessible, it was that way for a reason. Again not complaining, wave of scorn put up again make sense in grand scheme of things, parry tactic dont imo and BG felt way too much the change.
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-"Loop warned into oblivion" --> smell like chaosy enought :D
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-GMs --> dosent matter what they say not, they get offend by colors so watch out plebs! :D

mubbl
Posts: 157

Re: [BG] 2h spec changes [Close Date June 15]

Post#6 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:51 am

Tesq wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:24 am
mubbl wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:34 am
Why do you need that extra parry?
I have to admit it was a big nerf for bg but as tesq qouteted torque it was just silly op, i reached like 80% parry, if i wanted so, and still have near 40% with soft cap toughness and bubble etc.
Would be interesting to know if strikethrough affects your parry when applied by guard dmg? Anybody knows that?
it does not, tough why you should have less than 60-70% parry when going into orvr lake? in eu prime time a 2h bg just get cut out with out it. Even with that on you stil need full def tactics slots and m1 cleanse to survive and do something in WB.

look my bg full buffed with out 2h epic quest have like, 66 parry 30 dodge, 40 disrupt; these are normal avoidance values for any def tank and how you gona play a bg in orvr? full off and explode? How you gona guard with low parry cuz 40% is basically nothing; melee have that % not tanks...
Slayer gona ignore it 90% of time, pet striketrought feel like you are disarmed, guard dmg on a 2h tanks are damnit huge if less than 60% parry....There was a reason if it was the very first thing to be moved down and made more accessible, it was that way for a reason. Again not complaining, wave of scorn put up again make sense in grand scheme of things, parry tactic dont imo and BG felt way too much the change.
Im sure you can get some more as def tard cause thats almost my value stats on not glass canon bg. You miss atleast some in parry and disrupt i think, but maybe im wrong cant check it.
Personaly i would like to get the parry tactic back down but dont wanna get it changed also cause i think you will need the value from it for the upcoming dungeon and if you go in deftard modus going golfing in rvr. I would like to see the ap tacitc in this tree to get changed or cause the synergie with no one shell pass is gone and wont come back.

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Tesq
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Re: [BG] 2h spec changes [Close Date June 15]

Post#7 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:49 am

mubbl wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:51 am
Tesq wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:24 am
mubbl wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:34 am
Why do you need that extra parry?
I have to admit it was a big nerf for bg but as tesq qouteted torque it was just silly op, i reached like 80% parry, if i wanted so, and still have near 40% with soft cap toughness and bubble etc.
Would be interesting to know if strikethrough affects your parry when applied by guard dmg? Anybody knows that?
it does not, tough why you should have less than 60-70% parry when going into orvr lake? in eu prime time a 2h bg just get cut out with out it. Even with that on you stil need full def tactics slots and m1 cleanse to survive and do something in WB.

look my bg full buffed with out 2h epic quest have like, 66 parry 30 dodge, 40 disrupt; these are normal avoidance values for any def tank and how you gona play a bg in orvr? full off and explode? How you gona guard with low parry cuz 40% is basically nothing; melee have that % not tanks...
Slayer gona ignore it 90% of time, pet striketrought feel like you are disarmed, guard dmg on a 2h tanks are damnit huge if less than 60% parry....There was a reason if it was the very first thing to be moved down and made more accessible, it was that way for a reason. Again not complaining, wave of scorn put up again make sense in grand scheme of things, parry tactic dont imo and BG felt way too much the change.
Im sure you can get some more as def tard cause thats almost my value stats on not glass canon bg. You miss atleast some in parry and disrupt i think, but maybe im wrong cant check it.
Personaly i would like to get the parry tactic back down but dont wanna get it changed also cause i think you will need the value from it for the upcoming dungeon and if you go in deftard modus going golfing in rvr. I would like to see the ap tacitc in this tree to get changed or cause the synergie with no one shell pass is gone and wont come back.
Im conqueror 2h rr 60, full avoidance in renown unless you mean by jewelry and 2h epicquest there is no other way tought , sy btw are 67, 20, 30 without 2h and 76, 30, 40 with 2h epic quest.
But balance forum rules state no gear talk when balance. So a 2h bg with no gear % can reach these values. Max 67, 20, 30.

My s+b chosen like same set up.have 28, 60, 70, 67 full buff for rvr and is a lot more durable than 2h bg witg epic weapon with avoidance proc so idk.where this difference came from , if not in sc and on st dmg because in rvr my bg is nowhere near in 2h to my chosen and survive is really a hard work, use cleanse m 1 at right time + build rage and buff yourself toughnes very quick vs spam.hold the line in chosen mode. It was before with acces to parry like this, now is just hope enemy is bad so you will survive and you fell like a paper tank....or you leave home CD and you are usrless in 2h compared to a chosen/bo. Again i can understand wave of scorn moved up dok even have snare proc but not parry moved so far away, chosen /ib both have accessiable parry buff for 25% the same way and i dubt that not spec off they dont reach bg dmg, especially IB since it have the same dmg tools of BG + chosen touch of palsy mirror. This talk of 2h tank foing too many dmg can be apply to all 2h tank....
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mubbl
Posts: 157

Re: [BG] 2h spec changes [Close Date June 15]

Post#8 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:11 pm

Forgot the gear rule
Chosen parry is if you dont die you die less not like bg
The ib one is pretty strong i have to admit and but the rest of the tree doesnt give much for oath friend bg better specialist(not with shield) and ib more good over all~
The prob is bg has really good skill set ups and sadly you have to manage the trees somehow without client control
The ap tactic is worthless atm so why put that one on highest tactic position?

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Tesq
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Re: [BG] 2h spec changes [Close Date June 15]

Post#9 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:25 pm

mubbl wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:11 pm
Forgot the gear rule
Chosen parry is if you dont die you die less not like bg
The ib one is pretty strong i have to admit and but the rest of the tree doesnt give much for oath friend bg better specialist(not with shield) and ib more good over all~
The prob is bg has really good skill set ups and sadly you have to manage the trees somehow without client control
The ap tactic is worthless atm so why put that one on highest tactic position?
look the only difference between chosen suppression and bg tactic is that

A)chosen can be shatter but bg parry drop by spam aoe
B)chosen can be ista up(both em), bg need to build it and it is very weak in the first 10 sec of the encounter
C)IB is probably the best of 2, get up pretty fast dont requrie to hit as chosen one and also buff an ally, keep it up is a joke with buff head,

Chosen tactic and IB skill are both up in the same range in mastery and i happen to use chosen one and BG in the same way, i drop parry tactic for chosen as i drop parry tactic of my bg in sc but i cant do that in rvr. That is just not possible. The fact that BG got it so high now is basically a nerf to BG tanking potential and BG is a tank, avoidance should be his butter and bread thats why it would be better nerf dmg and not avoidance acces...in 1 way it still viable in both orvr and sc in the other it isn't. Tactic should just get move on the same chosen location otehrwise is just tank discrimination: chosen / IB / SM /BO / KOBS all have access to core stuff which give avoidance and all have acces in a way that the build which play in ORVR is covered by THAT avoidance.

Regarding IB it still have a lot of gimmik lower in the mastery while BG dont, IB can build similar to chosen in def pattern with 25% parry and a on block on proc which give less 15% dmg with out invest much in middle mastery, the same can do kobs/BO/sm, all tanks have option to be def with out invest much in middle mastery while they still get more from it, but all tanks (expect SM) got their dps toned down over time due this to make em more balanced; i dont see why with BG should be the opposite, again is a tank and not primary dps for the group, it can do dmg but his primary role is another thing otherwise this is not a game based on holy trinity anymore, the archtype define pretty much what the class is --> tank, not bomber.
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-"Loop warned into oblivion" --> smell like chaosy enought :D
-Nazgul--> ambitious but rubbish, cit Blast :D
-GMs --> dosent matter what they say not, they get offend by colors so watch out plebs! :D

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peterthepan3
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Re: [BG] 2h spec changes [Close Date June 15]

Post#10 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:54 pm

BG damage is not overperforming: it's in a very good place, and the Malice BG functions perfectly well as an offensive tank. I don't see why one would opt for nerfing their damage when discussing their utility - especially now given that you can't get everything in one spec anymore.

The concept of an offensive tank is pretty familiar and consistent in most MMOs.
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