[General] Morale Damage

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Darosh
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Re: [General] Morale Damage

Post#71 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:36 pm

First things first:
I didn't intend to level a L2P argument against CNTK ~ I consider Phalanx and CNTK to thrive for to entirely diffrent 'playstyles' (casual vs tryhard), you'll have to admit that there is not a single guild matching the strict organization/coordination of Phalanx.
Not matching that level of organization/coordination is strictly not a L2P issue, I am sure CNTK is on a mechanical level and unterstanding of gameflow etc on par with Phalanx, so are other organized ORvR guilds.
Furthermore, I don't see how I could potentially take your post as 'being salty' or a 'call out', you make valid points in a discussion - that's about it, tho I apologize should my tongue-in-cheek approach have come off as too harsh.
Karast wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:41 pm
I am not trying to be salty or call you out on this Darosh, but those videos don't give a complete picture, and this is nothing on zerg. When you make a fights video, you show the good stuff. But get a few people and make a WB and then run BH and you will see it is no where near as functional as you might think it is, especially fighting an organized enemy WB like TUP.

Zerg never had an easy time with it, they ate a lot of wipes, and it never fully worked out for them. I was there, CNTK were the ones they used to front line while they tried to pump their way up to 4. It rarely worked unless you were 2v1 another WB since the fight was over before then otherwise. Or the destro zerg is simply big enough that you just get mowed down. That's the reality of the situation.
==
Darosh wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:17 pm
[...] it did require setup (had them kite and consistently move/use cannonfodder/AM pumps) but there is virtually no counter to 5-8 M4 (BH) ranged, instant PBAoE that totals anywhere between 8k and roughly 12,8k undefendable damage ~ disregarding the ST component ~ followed up by FB+FFB rotations (rather FB[FF]->BH->FBB). [...]
My point wasn't about functionality in terms of deadset reliability, rather about the math behind it:
IF setup properly (regardless the cost, as covered in my initial response quoted above), you cannot, as Ramasee followed upon, survive a morale bomb like the one outlined above. It is strictly impossible ~ you cannot apply counters or stack even remotely enough wounds (across all classes, even - most importantly - on tanks) to live through it.
With Ramasee's input in mind, it's safe to say that the reliability of this particular approach wouldn't be as much of a risk to take if you manage to min-max your warbands to the nth degree - which Phalanx couldn't due to lack of slaves (11/10, building that guild moral with toptier bantz). Mind you, it does not lock you out of ordinary means of bombing after all.
Karast wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:41 pm
I'd really advise that dev's who are not knowledgeable about the current WB meta actually get stuck in a try to join a few sessions, just to see the tactics at play and what currently works or not, as well as the reason behind why people use, or don't use certain things. Right now these discussions often lack key view points and the same "You no you" and "X is better than Y", and "L2P" arguments comments just flood the threads.
This is undoubtly necessary for each and every format available in the game, +1.

In regards to 'why some things aren't used' ~ there are two sides to each medallion, in this very case:
Opting for reliability - opting to dare; Phalanx' approach didn't lock them out of either, ultimately.

I for one am more keen to go by 'who dares wins', you can't go wrong experimenting and dedicating yourself to whatever you experiment with... worst case you learn about the limits of the game and/or your resources, best case you find fancy new stuff and keep yourself entertained regardless (of failure); if you do not try to break the 'established' meta there is nothing to gain but Einheitstrott after all.

~~
saupreusse wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:15 am
[...]
Other games like Guild wars work a lot with ground indicators to give players a chance to react to possible AOE bombing by displaying the Area a few moments before the attack hits.
[...]
Careful there... even tho' you only refer to telegraphing AoE, considering GW2 - even if just for example's sake - as a source of inspiration:
GW2 had discount i-frames, terrible in hindsight-ducttaped targetcaps, exploitable downstates, a money grubbing developer/publisher running the show and abandoning WvWvW once the honeypot scheme generated enough profits, aswell as a terrible swissknife approach to class design - every bit of that game constitues the antithesis to WAR, so do almost all gameflow related products of this trainwreck.

Take the GW2's implementation of telegraphing as means to eliminate - or atleast severely limiting - player interaction; to create a hotjoin-esque scenario. Vibrant, all-encompassing telegraphs dumb down communication; aniticipation, missjudgement, failure, practice, reliance ~ and success (in spite of these aspects and requirements, aswell as a derivative of plain social interaction) ~ are essential for the development of a healthy community (I am almost certain that communities formed in GW2 [and other modern games for that matter] are internally fragile, especially in comparison to communities formed within 'old media').

The directly above applies to all major aspects of GW2 fundamental design, you are meant to consume, not to bond - bonding might cut player retention by large margin, should key figures (those that you'd follow and listen to; who fail with you rather than 'react' with - yet independantly of you - to an event).

In short, vagueness of game design is often a blessing in disguise - the most, seemingly trivial and outstandingly subtle mechanism and designs can, and will, have the biggest impact on behaviour ~

E: Keep any typos and whatnot that you find, your welcome. Cue peon meme, bloody tablet, yadayada.
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catholicism198
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Re: [General] Morale Damage

Post#72 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:30 pm

For those suggesting morale damage absorbing morale abilities:

How exactly would that work since there's no way of know when the enemy will drop their morale bombs? Would it function similar to how Isha's Ward did, where you would pop it preemptively, and then once again when the CD ended, just in case you were targeted? Or would you get a prompt that reads, "you are being for with a morale ability, please select yes or no if you would like to counter their morale with your morale damage absorbing ability."

dansari
Posts: 2479

Re: [General] Morale Damage

Post#73 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:39 pm

catholicism198 wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:30 pm
For those suggesting morale damage absorbing morale abilities:

How exactly would that work since there's no way of know when the enemy will drop their morale bombs? Would it function similar to how Isha's Ward did, where you would pop it preemptively, and then once again when the CD ended, just in case you were targeted? Or would you get a prompt that reads, "you are being for with a morale ability, please select yes or no if you would like to counter their morale with your morale damage absorbing ability."
What would you suggest using to counter instant morale damage, then?
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catholicism198
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Re: [General] Morale Damage

Post#74 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:49 pm

dansari wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:39 pm
catholicism198 wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:30 pm
For those suggesting morale damage absorbing morale abilities:

How exactly would that work since there's no way of know when the enemy will drop their morale bombs? Would it function similar to how Isha's Ward did, where you would pop it preemptively, and then once again when the CD ended, just in case you were targeted? Or would you get a prompt that reads, "you are being for with a morale ability, please select yes or no if you would like to counter their morale with your morale damage absorbing ability."
What would you suggest using to counter instant morale damage, then?
We have to wait and see exactly how an increased morale rate will affect zerg vs zerg warfare and whether or not bombing will become more of an issue- as well as if people are going to start speccing for m4s and popping them every 2 minutes~
If so, I'm in favor of giving bombing m4s a 5minute~ CD and changing m2/m3 and lower morale abilities to be DoT based and not burst bombs.

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Ramasee
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Re: [General] Morale Damage

Post#75 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:57 pm

catholicism198 wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:30 pm
For those suggesting morale damage absorbing morale abilities:

How exactly would that work since there's no way of know when the enemy will drop their morale bombs? Would it function similar to how Isha's Ward did, where you would pop it preemptively, and then once again when the CD ended, just in case you were targeted? Or would you get a prompt that reads, "you are being for with a morale ability, please select yes or no if you would like to counter their morale with your morale damage absorbing ability."
Ramasee wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:25 am
If possible, the first thing is that morale-based bubbles and morale-based, damage mitigation should work against morale damage. This would vastly improve these types of morales and provide a small level of counter play against morale damage dumps.

M2 and M3 morales should not have AoE direct damage. They should be changed to (short duration) DoTs or channels to allow some level of counter-play. Raze for example can be interrupted and has some chance to be healed through if it isn't due to the duration.

...
You are correct, there is no 100% certain way of knowing when an enemy is going to use their morale. However, there are a few defensive morales that can be changed to include morale damage. You could try to use them preemptively, you can also use them reflexively and you might catch part of the morale dump, and their effects would still work against other types of damage. Also, changing these morales to work against morales is part of a multi-step process to balancing the equation. Posted as early as post number 4 which I quoted.

Can you be more specific on why you think these should not be implemented in this way (if you are arguing this point, it was not very clear)

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Darks63
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Re: [General] Morale Damage

Post#76 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:24 pm

Ramasee wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:39 pm
Snip
Glorian wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:34 pm
Snip
My issue with the wait and see approach is that how long will it take to decide what needs to be toned down or buffed? A week? A month? Three months? One of the nice things about RoR is that TTK is overall pretty moderate. By increasing morale gains TTK drops, people die faster, which will leads to more player frustration and the server continuing to bleed its player base.
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catholicism198
Posts: 918

Re: [General] Morale Damage

Post#77 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:28 pm

Me or him?
I'm not for nor against it, just curious as to how you would suggest implementing it... Isha's Ward was complete...what was it..."cheese..." the same principles and arguments would/do apply to that suggestion. You can go over the balance proposal made at the time and read all them arguments in favor of the adjustment.

Another option that I don't think has been suggested, would be adding a third immunity timer- a 30second or 1 minute immunity to damaging morale abilities- that way you cannot get bombed repeated and they don't have to bother adjusting all morale abilities or add new ones.
30 seconds would fall in line with all other immunity timers and 1 minute with the CD of the morale itself.

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Tesq
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Re: [General] Morale Damage

Post#78 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:40 pm

dansari wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:39 pm
catholicism198 wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:30 pm
For those suggesting morale damage absorbing morale abilities:

How exactly would that work since there's no way of know when the enemy will drop their morale bombs? Would it function similar to how Isha's Ward did, where you would pop it preemptively, and then once again when the CD ended, just in case you were targeted? Or would you get a prompt that reads, "you are being for with a morale ability, please select yes or no if you would like to counter their morale with your morale damage absorbing ability."
What would you suggest using to counter instant morale damage, then?
There is.no "counter " against ista drop (counter require time to act math oneshoiting 9 ppl morales drop.give.none) only awarness (aka positioning) and that get ****.pretty fast by pull.and punt.

Classes that exel for base at aoe MUST NOT have access to ista morales( because they aoe.pre.and.post morales) but only overtime or channeling so.that enemy have acceas to TIME (aka bw and mara.ista morales must.go and.only wh/we have to remain)
to use some COUNTER TOOLS ( def moralea such all.tanks m4 and.sorc/engi m2 need to.reduces morales.damages too).

This way you have both the right tools.and.the right time to work on countering enemy.morales ; i gona REMARK that still it takes your work to mitigate those.morales.and this will NOT result in a bland offensive dmg.morales nerf, not organized wb will.still.die the same way, organised wb will have fair chance even.if they just entered the lake vs opponents with.full.moral.bar. Wich is totally fine.
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adamthelc
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Re: [General] Morale Damage

Post#79 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:45 pm

It cant just be morale DR also reduces morale damage too. It would be too easy and since one person could reduce too much damage.

There is a certain amount of coordination it take to drop a bunch of morales at the same time, even if might not be that hard. 1 person reducing 75% of all that damage would take no coordination and pretty much nullify the effort of a large group of people.

Introducing counterplay is a good idea in theory. But it should take at least the same amount of coordination to counter a morale drop that it takes to do one, if not more.

A morale interrupt would be cool. Have a morale that acts a spell lock against morales, giving them a 5 second CD on morales or something. Although that could just as easily be used offensively, so maybe it's a terrible idea.

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Skullgrin
Posts: 418

Re: [General] Morale Damage

Post#80 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:10 am

Browsing thru this thread I've noticed quite a few people are worried that with the increased morale generation rate to 36/sec you will be able to use a morale ability every 20 seconds or so. This simply isn't true, due to the 1 minute (or more) cooldowns that all morale abilities share. Even at the current rate of 10/sec I've seen in Keep fights that you can have enough morale to use a M2 ability but cannot due to the cooldown not having yet expired.

I think that all the increased rate will do is give us more options in which morale to use, not make them massively overpowered. At any rate I look forward to seeing what effect the change will have. :P
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