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DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

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Poll: Which approach do you prefer?

Specialization
72
58%
Hybridization
39
31%
None (explain in comments)
14
11%
Total votes: 125

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madrocks
Posts: 123

Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#91 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:58 pm

These are quite wrong, I’m afraid.

A good heal dok no matter in what environment 6v6, 24+ or zerg will never go into frontline and risk whole group. CC isn’t its job so silence and etc is invalid in serious environment. Otherwise, that silly move will kill a dok most likely because it will become target n.1. And believe me, it will be killed immediately, especially in zerg environment.

Heal doks are already have a choice to stay in the back and heal like a god. That’s what every WB and small scale healer dok actually does: stays in backline, as far away from enemies as possible but in range of effective healing. Look at any Warband or Group video you will never see a competent dok near its tank risking whole group/warband.

12v12 is not a scale to balance. 6v6 and mainly 24+v24+ are the scales because our main part of the game and the end game environment are full of massive numbers. RvR are about zerg and big numbers. Forts will have even more people fighting at the same time. No dok will survive there if it tries to go into melee. It will require a guard and attention of another healer, therefore, dps will lose the guard and die or have to retreat, stop dealing damage and the second healer will have to help al whole group alone while its partner will be in cc or close to death applying some questionable cc.

Wow, who died and left you boss?

I personally stand in the middle of order bombing Zerg and I die usually as last one or one of the last; that is not because people focus heal me or because I am not getting focused by the order.
I am always at the front as DoK I don’t have always guard and I still rock the heals and live. Figures.
I silence key targets and I expect every healer to use all the utilities at their disposal. And if I die, there is the instarezz gobbo.
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peterthepan3
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Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#92 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:05 pm

@Drozz
That still isn't a clearcut role (which is the issue for circa-58% anyway!). If the class hasn't got a clearcut role/doesn't perform as good as a pure healer or pure DPS, then you are doing your group a disservice by bringing one. I understand the jack of all trades argument (which is definitely a valid argument for the hybrid court).
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monster
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Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#93 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:19 pm

Would you rather someone deal 500k dmg
or 250k dmg and 250k healing

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DanielWinner
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Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#94 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:21 pm

madrocks wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:58 pm
Spoiler:
These are quite wrong, I’m afraid.

A good heal dok no matter in what environment 6v6, 24+ or zerg will never go into frontline and risk whole group. CC isn’t its job so silence and etc is invalid in serious environment. Otherwise, that silly move will kill a dok most likely because it will become target n.1. And believe me, it will be killed immediately, especially in zerg environment.

Heal doks are already have a choice to stay in the back and heal like a god. That’s what every WB and small scale healer dok actually does: stays in backline, as far away from enemies as possible but in range of effective healing. Look at any Warband or Group video you will never see a competent dok near its tank risking whole group/warband.

12v12 is not a scale to balance. 6v6 and mainly 24+v24+ are the scales because our main part of the game and the end game environment are full of massive numbers. RvR are about zerg and big numbers. Forts will have even more people fighting at the same time. No dok will survive there if it tries to go into melee. It will require a guard and attention of another healer, therefore, dps will lose the guard and die or have to retreat, stop dealing damage and the second healer will have to help al whole group alone while its partner will be in cc or close to death applying some questionable cc.
Wow, who died and left you boss?

I personally stand in the middle of order bombing Zerg and I die usually as last one or one of the last; that is not because people focus heal me or because I am not getting focused by the order.
I am always at the front as DoK I don’t have always guard and I still rock the heals and live. Figures.
I silence key targets and I expect every healer to use all the utilities at their disposal. And if I die, there is the instarezz gobbo.
Clearly you are not facing my warbands.
I will meet you at the fort gates then.
With all due respect that is indicative of poor play from your enemy if they don't capitalise on poor positioning of enemy healers. Also, being matter-of-fact about your death ('there will always be a shaman to rez') shows that you aren't 100% committed to staying alive that may lead to a wipe for your entire WB. Also, probably, you speak from NA perspective otherwise I can’t quite understand how it could be possible to happen during EU prime time with sometimes really great numbers and huge encounters where things, you talk about, are just impossible.
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Drozen
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Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#95 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:32 pm

peterthepan3 wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:05 pm
@Drozz
That still isn't a clearcut role - which is the issue (for circa-58% anyway!). If the class hasn't got a clearcut role/doesn't perform as good as a pure healer or pure DPS, then you are doing your group a disservice by bringing one. I understand the jack of all trades argument (which is definitely a valid argument for the hybrid court).
And that is my point, do it really need a clear role? why cant it like it does now act like a compliment to the other two trees. You already have two very valid options to choose from, depending of the situation (M-heal or caster). And if you go wrath/grace you just adding some more offensive capabilities while sacrificing survivabilty and heals that is not directly life tap. And i dont reaally feel that taking Wp/DoK in the state it is today is a comprimise in anyway, granted yes if you take a wrath/grace instead of a dps class while retaining a "Normal"(6v6) setup with 2heals,2tanks & then 1 pure dps you will lack the dmg output.

My thought is that i can not see the need for a "clear" role, beeing a compliment is fine just like many other class has it. doing it more specialized just makes it more limited and forces you in to a play style. If I wanted to play mdps i would have rolled one, No i wanted to play hybrid. and having the option between high investment in Salv or Wrath is what actually made me stick to the class ever since WAR:age of reckoning released.

I think we can agree on disagree here, you know my views on this and also what i think need tweaking.
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madrocks
Posts: 123

Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#96 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:42 pm

With all due respect that is indicative of poor play from your enemy if they don't capitalise on poor positioning of enemy healers. Also, being matter-of-fact about your death ('there will always be a shaman to rez') shows that you aren't 100% committed to staying alive that may lead to a wipe for your entire WB. Also, probably, you speak from NA perspective otherwise I can’t quite understand how it could be possible to happen during EU prime time with sometimes really great numbers and huge encounters where things, you talk about, are just impossible.
Yeah right, it must be poor play by Order. Not.
I lead mostly EU tz. Ask around..
No, my warband wipes when Order has sudden overwhelming numbers.
My intend is always to win and stay alive with the warband, everyone knows that.
Order is well positioned and organized, has dwarf gun lines and punting lions that climb walls. There is rarely poor play by Order warbands.

I will leave this poll and discussion now as I expressed my warnings and objections.
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kauyon1
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Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#97 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:15 pm

Seems to me that the issue being described is that the DOK/WP is a good PUG killer BECAUSE and apparently only because it has exceptional life taps.

Why not move the life tap (Divine Assualt/Rend) as a Grace tree purchased ability near to the top of the tree? Then you can buff the DPS and melee heal trees without fear of the life tap effe.

And if the DPS DOK/WP wants back that life tap, they have to significantly ignore key components of their DPS tree that make them viable PvP DPS (leaving the availability for PVE goodness).
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adamthelc
Posts: 657

Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#98 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:54 pm

Spoiler:
DanielWinner wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:31 pm
madrocks wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:50 pm
Spoiler:
Balancing with weapons/gear will never be a way.
Currently, the classes have such ways to play: backline healer, hybrid dps (more dps than healing), hybrid healer (more healing than dps). After specialization it will look like this most likely: backline healer (100% healer), dps (80 dps, 20 self heal), hybrid healer (since its melee and will do some dps no matter what: 80 healing, 20 dps). Basically, the idea of hybrid still will be there but in different form because there will never be a hybrid which will deal, for example, 80% dps+80% healing and in certain today’s specs 50% dps + 50% healing is luckluster ( outside solo play ) that we can observe any time currently.
You know a DoK/WP Healer can not stand in the backline (of course depending what you mean by backline)
100 ft group heal, 30ft aoe heal, melee based silence, cripple and despell makes a good DoK stand right behind the tank or even infront of him.

You can not give a DoK/WP the choice to stand in the back and heal like a god.
I can only repeat myself, do you understand what kinda stone you are about to throw into the lake?

12vs12 is what you have to go for.
These are quite wrong, I’m afraid.

A good heal dok no matter in what environment 6v6, 24+ or zerg will never go into frontline and risk whole group. CC isn’t its job so silence and etc is invalid in serious environment. Otherwise, that silly move will kill a dok most likely because it will become target n.1. And believe me, it will be killed immediately, especially in zerg environment.

Heal doks are already have a choice to stay in the back and heal like a god. That’s what every WB and small scale healer dok actually does: stays in backline, as far away from enemies as possible but in range of effective healing. Look at any Warband or Group video you will never see a competent dok near its tank risking whole group/warband.

12v12 is not a scale to balance. 6v6 and mainly 24+v24+ are the scales because our main part of the game and the end game environment are full of massive numbers. RvR are about zerg and big numbers. Forts will have even more people fighting at the same time. No dok will survive there if it tries to go into melee. It will require a guard and attention of another healer, therefore, dps will lose the guard and die or have to retreat, stop dealing damage and the second healer will have to heal whole group alone while its partner will be in cc or close to death applying some questionable cc.
THIS IS OFF TOPIC, therefore, here it goes under
Spoiler:
but its beyond goofy to suggest that you don't try to balance 12 v 12. I think if you balance around a group and a WB, 12 v 12 SHOULD inherently be balanced, so "12v12 is not a scale to balance" is just a bad argument.

However if that is the official view and belief, why are the majority of scenarios allowed to be designed around a number of participants between 6 and 24? Seems like a huge oversight. Instanced PvP is supposed to have parameters that make it somewhat balanced compared to the anything goes environment of RvR. So why is a more balanced form of play designed with parameters that aren't considered for balance? It doesn't make a lot of sense.

The most likely answer to this enigma, is that you are wrong. You are confusing what the game is with your own perceptions of what you think the game should be. When the game was live I was constantly looking for good competition and I thought that was 6v6. The vast majority of time what I got was queue queue into a 12 v 12 premade vs premade. Taking a step back, I realized 12v12 is better than 6v6. With the only exception being its easier to field a 6 man.

If I am wrong, you should stop allowing scenarios with group sizes between 6 and 24.

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Bozzax
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Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#99 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:17 pm

peterthepan3 wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:05 pm
@Drozz
That still isn't a clearcut role (which is the issue for circa-58% anyway!). If the class hasn't got a clearcut role/doesn't perform as good as a pure healer or pure DPS, then you are doing your group a disservice by bringing one. I understand the jack of all trades argument (which is definitely a valid argument for the hybrid court).
58% of what?

Wo looking at who and what classes voted what does it really tell you? Also do consider why ppl of other classes may vote for changing a class they possibly dont play? 100 votes > active doks and wps

Even If that would have been 58% of all active wp/docs on the server what does it really tell you?

E: made it more polite ;)
Last edited by Bozzax on Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:20 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Culdu
Posts: 67

Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#100 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:24 pm

I voted hybrid, but I also think the class needs a bit more specialization, but not just reducing it to dd OR healer. WAR already got pure dds and healer.

The great thing about the class in melee is the possibility to support, either deal damage and support own side when pressured or vice versa heal and support damage on the assist target. And I would strongly recommend to keep that coz there are also other classes, pure dds and pure heals, so no need for another one.

Having the class as another DD with selfheal is just nonsense. Choose Slayer or Mara or … then.

Using a hybrid in a Group is not a typical 2-2-2 setup, you either lose offensive potential for some more durability or vice versa. I think it’s good for a game to offer some options.

To have useful, but not over performing hybrid is quite hard to balance, but there are some things which partly balance themselves due to the situation.

Healing <-> Damage

If a wp/dok could heal like full healer while dealing damage like a full dd or having the debuff potential would be truly op.

Current situation:

On a healing slot (max sacrifice rest torture) you are only able to assist on the main target as long as the enemy is weak and doesn’t apply pressure, or the enemy doesn’t use defensive stuff (guard …). Otherwise you switch on anything soft, pets, some healer between detaunts … I regularly deal more damage in the scenario stats in the end when playing like that, than when playing on damage simply due to more essence lash and softer targets. But this “damage” is mostly useless coz only very little of it is on the main target. Even when it’s possible to produce good healing numbers with that, a dok is missing possibilities to heal against a long strong focus, wp has some options for that, but also not perfect.

On the other hand, when skilled on damage (max torture rest sacrifice) you often use the grp heal style but the target in typical fights has guard and you some debuffs which leaves you with some 350 grp heal per style. That would be too much if you would deal damage like a real dd but, even when some people dream about it … even Doks does deal less damage on target than a choppa or we. When someone is pressured and you want to heal him with the channel you typically switch to any softer target than the main target. So this damage is again wasted.

In summary, even when you are able to produce some high numbers on both, heal and damage board some/most of your healing or damage is wasted. So in a balance approach the hybrid version wouldn’t need a heal + damage = 100 %. That would vastly underperform.

Possible changes

Overall:

When slotting 2 hand / dual casttime on resurrection is doubled
Reintroduction of the old ae heal style with an added base value (overall higher value than grp heal style)
Reduction of the base heal value of group heal Style for example 100 or 150 (possibly also only when 2 hand/ dual)


Melee “hybrid”

Empowered Transfer Tactic:
-Willpower buff like on ab ex. Buff via hitting.
- 25% damage debuff
- higher base value and % on Grp heal Style
- higher base value and % on new/returned ae heal style
- normal resurrection time (means back on normal if 2 hand / 2 weps used)
- 125% heal from devour essence
- 10% strikethrough on melee healing tree abilities.


Tactics with heal reduction (e.g. divine fury)
These Tactics still influence your cast heals heal value and your damage value. So if you slot them you get better melee heals but lose cast heal potential, slotting both would probably be stupid ;) but still having their influence would offer a melee healer a good option to adjust to the situation and offers more masteryoptions.


A 25% damage debuff is enough, because in most situations the melee healers damage would not be on a main target, but when he chooses to risk lesser healing and places himself in the thick of the fight, his damage counts. Having useless 2-digit damage numbers on melee healer would not compensate the higher risk for your positioning and the additional target selection. That would only be that case if you would make it as braindead as on .ab ex but I really hope you do not include crap like ignoring target defense (parry, armor, tough, guard…..)for healing output.


Damage “hybrid”

I would not suggest to really increase the damage, also in the case of the WP. Perhaps guilty soul tactic slot could be used to include a more single target damage tactic.
For the class in “damage” skill I would like to see a role like offensive supporter and not just another dd.
I would include 2-3 more usefull debuffs or Buffs to improve the group utility. Str Toughness debuffs are plenty around so useless. Ini from wp is better but also several in game.
Very suitable would be buffs for friendly players or Group, but not you, something unique or stacking to make it an interesting group option. (Good for Group play, not really op/usefull in solo/pug)
For example:
-Deals x damage and buffs your defensive target (not you) with +15% damage for 10 secs.
-Deals x damage and let your grp regain x ap over 9 secs.
-Deals x damage and buffs your defensive target (not you) to receive 20% more heal for 10 secs. (only for castheals like working now)
-Deals x damage and gives friendly player cc immunity for 5 secs
(I just want to give an idea in which direction I think here.)

The new/returned single target heal and the channeling healstyle could still be used with an ok heal value, transfer essence has such a low output then on normal targets that it doesn’t really make a difference and it is better to use any other style (buffs debuffs damage).

Conclusion
Keeping the hybrid and adding changes like outlined above would make the classes more interesting and valuable for groups, especially the melee healer. It won’t just produce another melee dd and another healer. Also the classes would keep its current training curve: Positioning, targeting enemy and friends and using off or def abilities depending on the situation in that second.

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