I'm not completely opposed to some of OPs ideas, and playing ST/Aoe on my Sorc/BW I can definitely agree that the classes have taken a hit, when facing any enemy that has half decent disrupt stacking.
However fact remains, BW/Sorc remain lawnmowers that swallow pugs and churn out medals when facing unorganized pugs or enemies that lack HTL, Disrupt buffs and cleansing efficiency.
So the real hard question is, how to balance classes that still excel at wiping pugs, but become "lol at those dots" or simply cleansed when facing proper opposition. (any good healer will prehot on first sign of WoP or BB and begin cleansing).
More efficient Chillwind/Ignite is something looks tolerable, but uncleansable BB/WOP is just a bit too much, considering how extreme the damage is from that skill. A minor damage buff or additional debuff into VoT/SB is also something that might be tolerable without buffing the classes too much.
7 second max disrupt strikethrough is also over brutal, something that might be in the moral effect department, even then, it would also bring the class into total deathmachine for that duration, whilst outside of that timeframe very sloppy at dealing dmg at any organized opposition.
My counter suggestion: add 10% strikethrough into Staff wielding classes. Duel Wield gets 10% parry bonus, 2hander gets 10% block strikethrough; so why not give magical casters BW/Sorc/Magus/AM/Shaman/RP a similar type of benefit.
Considering you face currently 20-40% disrupt on average, (at times even harder if enemy has proper HTL + DeftDefender stacking going on), a drop by 10% into the total attack/defence calculation should probably give real efficiency of 7% gain.
And, the Disrupts are not hurting only BW and Sorc, but other magical casters as well. All staff wielders having same "buff" would not only benefit BW+Sorc, but also less played dps classes like AM, Shaman, Rp and even the rare Magus sighting.
This could be tested a few weeks, and if the amount of disrupt is still too damn high, then maybe modify it more, or then considering harder hitting dots.
Improving the ST of BW/Sorc.
Ads
Re: Improving the ST of BW/Sorc.
Hah today I was thinking about the same, but my propolsal is instead flat striketrough the % to be linked with weapon dps for example for each 5dps from staves u got 5% striketrough so magical users finally got some benefit from their weapons dps ratings and better staves with higher dps rating means less disruptAurandilaz wrote: My counter suggestion: add 10% strikethrough into Staff wielding classes. Duel Wield gets 10% parry bonus, 2hander gets 10% block strikethrough; so why not give magical casters BW/Sorc/Magus/AM/Shaman/RP a similar type of benefit.
Considering you face currently 20-40% disrupt on average, (at times even harder if enemy has proper HTL + DeftDefender stacking going on), a drop by 10% into the total attack/defence calculation should probably give real efficiency of 7% gain.
And, the Disrupts are not hurting only BW and Sorc, but other magical casters as well. All staff wielders having same "buff" would not only benefit BW+Sorc, but also less played dps classes like AM, Shaman, Rp and even the rare Magus sighting.
This could be tested a few weeks, and if the amount of disrupt is still too damn high, then maybe modify it more, or then considering harder hitting dots.
Mostly harmless
K8P & Norn - guild Orz
K8P & Norn - guild Orz
Re: Improving the ST of BW/Sorc.
Let's look at what really changedBozzax wrote:Explain why you disagree with one/several of the options presented. Or don't post at all. Last time I say this, you have been warned in the past in the BDF for this very same reason.Spoiler:
- HTL was fixed and now correctly yields 15% avoidance
- Dots was changed (application and ticks are now both defendable)
- All base avoidance was bumped
- BW instant on disrupt was given a 6s CD
+ Group cleanses was nerfed to affect either self or group
+ Cleansing Winds was removed
Nothing here was explicit changes to BW, SORC outside of fixing out of control BW tactic
MELEE DPS
- These classes more or less all has access to melee avoidance reducers
Base avoidance increased parry %
Biggest losers from CW removal
- Ini is very hard to stack - so limited effect from base avoidance change
Potent dodge strikethrough tactics
Ticks being defendable well a small hit but CW was also removed
- Healers gained 15-25% more disrupt
Both realms have massive ST willpower buffs (BG, IB)
(BW, SORC has a big willpower ST buff on a long CD)
HTL is typically not canceled out by strikethrough tactics
There are quite a few +% disrupt increasers (see below)
Undef on disrupt abilities / tactics offers some relief (BW, MAGUS, SORC) (see below)
- Lower base off stats so even more disrupt %
Limited access to strikethrough (AM)/undef (RP) tactics
Both realms have massive ST willpower buffs (BG, IB)
There are quite a few +% disrupt increasers (see below)
So on to op suggestion. Making WoP, BB (even SB, VoT) stronger isn't a great idea since it only fixes a small subset of the affected classes and very specific specs / rotations.
Moreover these "back loaded burst dots" already are (was?) very potent and the envy of all other rdps. Even more so considering clns changes and mostly because of CW removal.
Lastly adding 100% outgoing strikethrough buffs is simply awful game design.
Dodge and disrupt increasers and decreases
Undefendable stuff
Last edited by Bozzax on Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:50 pm, edited 7 times in total.
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7
Re: Improving the ST of BW/Sorc.
Melee (most of) classes has an options.
Magic classes has NOT. No one of them. Sorc/BW/Sham/Am/RP/Magus can use only staves. And Zealot - only knife.
Again, more attacking stat you have - then more disrupt strikethrough you have also. Everything were created long before us, no need to do that again.
This would help to pure DDs and hits hard all hybrids (but who cares?)
Magic classes has NOT. No one of them. Sorc/BW/Sham/Am/RP/Magus can use only staves. And Zealot - only knife.
Again, more attacking stat you have - then more disrupt strikethrough you have also. Everything were created long before us, no need to do that again.
This would help to pure DDs and hits hard all hybrids (but who cares?)
Bretin: "destru classes are in general better for solo play"
A lot of addons here | Just a few T3 vids from live game | Remove IP-blocking at forum!
A lot of addons here | Just a few T3 vids from live game | Remove IP-blocking at forum!
Re: Improving the ST of BW/Sorc.
the problem is that it WAS like that... but it has been changed with the new defense system... what you are suggesting is to revert to the old model, and it will not be done (it has been stated multiple time by staff meber...)SilverWF wrote:Melee (most of) classes has an options.
Magic classes has NOT. No one of them. Sorc/BW/Sham/Am/RP/Magus can use only staves. And Zealot - only knife.
Again, more attacking stat you have - then more disrupt strikethrough you have also. Everything were created long before us, no need to do that again.
This would help to pure DDs and hits hard all hybrids (but who cares?)
the old system was: defensive stat genereted FIXED % of defense, the offensive stat genereted FIXED % of striketrough... obviously the offensive stat being MUCH EASIER to stack (even if you go fo a defensive build on dps you can still reach around 700 main stat with easy... while getting 600 defensive stat is hard even if you invest everything on it...)resulted in defensive stat being completeley supressed with a good amount of striketrough left, as a result of this only helaers managed to get a tiny bit of disrupt, if they also invested in renown disrupt they could go as far as an effective 20% disrupt (wp with it's 10% disrupt tattic was a little better off but still a far cry from what it is now...)
the new system: defensive stat generate a defense VALUE (defense tattics, renown and item add to this value), offensive stat genereate a strigketrough VALUE (tattic and item are added to this value), a roll is made with a value thet is between 1 and 100+striketrough VALUE, if the result is above the defense value the skill HIT if it is below the defense is succesfull... this mean that offensive stat is ALREADY take into account, but it will never bring the defense chance to 0 that was instead possible with the old system on the other end the more offensive stat one has the less effective an increase in striketrough become (the investment/return in striketrough is a parabolic function)
so since it has already been stated that this change will not be reverted, better lokk for a different solution... the suggestion of Aurandilaz is indeed pretty smart (and honestly I didn't think about it at all ^^') staves giving out a fixed disrupt striketrough just like 2h for melee seem to be quite fair and would already alleviate the problem without completely negating the concept of the new defense system that the staff has worked on... an alternative to it could be an "archetype wide tattic" similar to fisical RDPS pierce defense... those are the 2 solution that I see as most resonable and that will actualy affect the problem and not just the symptoms (increasing damage only serve to affect the symptoms... "since I get lot of disrupt let's make my skill hit harder so that when I manage to hit I deal lots of damage to compensate!")
Re: Improving the ST of BW/Sorc.
I like the idea of bringing BW/sorcs into the set grp meta. But as OP and many posts after that talks about, the problem lies with giving casters a way to perform better ST without increasing their ability to pug stomp.
I believe the solution to this dilemma is to modify OP 4. Dont give the BW/Sorc this ability. But give a disrupt strike through to another class (Like tank or SW/SH) Set grp play is a team activity anyway so make sense (to me) to pair BW/Sorc up with another class to maximize its potential.
I believe the solution to this dilemma is to modify OP 4. Dont give the BW/Sorc this ability. But give a disrupt strike through to another class (Like tank or SW/SH) Set grp play is a team activity anyway so make sense (to me) to pair BW/Sorc up with another class to maximize its potential.
Re: Improving the ST of BW/Sorc.
while this is also a reasonable idea... I would esclude SW/SH from the loop... giving a class competing for the same spot (rdps) an ability necessary for a class to work...is the same as saing... "we have slot for SH/SW... and if we have something slot free than we can take a Sorc/BW"...Valeri wrote:I like the idea of bringing BW/sorcs into the set grp meta. But as OP and many posts after that talks about, the problem lies with giving casters a way to perform better ST without increasing their ability to pug stomp.
I believe the solution to this dilemma is to modify OP 4. Dont give the BW/Sorc this ability. But give a disrupt strike through to another class (Like tank or SW/SH) Set grp play is a team activity anyway so make sense (to me) to pair BW/Sorc up with another class to maximize its potential.
also... while the idea of favouting cooperation between classes is good... but other classes/archetype have the insturment to WORK intheir assets... and get BONUS from others... but here it would be something FUNDAMENTLA coming from other classes...
Re: Improving the ST of BW/Sorc.
Spoiler:
Last edited by Bozzax on Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7
Ads
Re: Improving the ST of BW/Sorc.
Giving tanks or mdps disrupt strikethrough debuff sounds interesting and effective to me.
Re: Improving the ST of BW/Sorc.
kotbs one is a 13 point dps ability, still pretty good (totally forgot about this one..) but note that it actualy wark against ALL defense... it means that yes... it reduce 10% dirupt... but also reduces 10% block, dodge and parry... and this stack with pierce defense on top of parry being avoidable with positioning... ^^'Bozzax wrote:AOE
Staggering Impact (kniggit) 30” -10%
ST
Critical Supression (cho) 5” -10%
Magus / Engie both have a 100” -5%
Chosen critical suppression is the same as Kotbs in the fact that it is applied to ALL defenses... but being a tattic it shouldn't stack with pierce defense... so you get 15% reduced chance to parry/block/dodge and 10% chance to disrupt... still it is probably the best asset a destro Magical RDPS can work on.... and it by itself is pretty sad... also only ST on a 10sec cd/duration
engi don't have disrupt reduction ^^ flare reduces block and dodge ^^' (and they also got pierce defense for a total of 20% potential dodge and block reduction ^^' )
magus have a 5% dirupt reduction... on a disruptable skill with 20 sec cd ^^' yes it help... but can't really be the only thing you can depend on to salvage the high dirupt chance that is currentyl going on ^^
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests