[SM] Crushing Advance

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Tesq
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[SM] Crushing Advance

Post#1 » Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:17 am

Problem:
1-double weaknss for the self buff component
A-armor and block buff component can be shattered
B-require you to hit

2-The skill effect is pretty..."basic" for a 13 pt skill, the SM seems not a lot in line with the other tanks in durability in s+b especially when going mass scale. (the armor component don't stack and is just few 100-200 point more than a potion)

N.B: the interrupt component is single target so is just a small addition while nice is not really that good especially where this skill is used (oRvR). But itìs still usefull and make nice the skill as a whole for 13 pt ; just the buff effect feel lackluster

Solution for each problem:
1-make the skill only require you to hit and change the components effects from enchantment to buff (so only 1 weakness instead 2)

2-here i think of 2 alternaive solutions 1 is weaker and 1 is stronger or anyway any of those have strong /weak potentiality
A- the block should became 10% (10% + armor seems k as additonal 13pt avoidace skill)
B- the armor buff stack similary to what do the BG ones

N.B: i dont see well the chance to give a tank a very spamable aoe interrupt, so i think the possible fix should be more into the defensive side rather than the support one; so the interrut component should remain st as it is now. Also even if burden with a higher CD then the def buff component will basically loose his reliability , i belive it shine more in currently implementation, st but usable every 10 sec.

N.B.B: The CD while feeling low is that way to allow the skill to also be used as interrupt and so it should not be used as motivation to disallow the fix
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dansari
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Re: [SM] crushing advance

Post#2 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:57 pm

Moving to discussions. Topic will be closed on April 30. For a 13pt ability this is certainly one that is taken pretty much never, and is the least popular tree.
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catholicism198
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Re: [SM] Crushing Advance [Close Date Apr 30]

Post#3 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:28 pm

Pretty sure Torque already stated that solution one isn't possible- changing Enchantment to Buff

Charon
Posts: 151

Re: [SM] Crushing Advance [Close Date Apr 30]

Post#4 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:54 pm

Generally speaking... currently vaul tree is a bit under performing or at most have only supporting role as a back up for khain or hoeth tree. It create a space to possible changes than might give snb spec more flavor.
First of all crushing advance should not be placed where it is now, it is not bad.... simply it is not on a par with other 13poits skills.
+ so maybe ... replace CA with Redirected force (one of worst skills in the game) and lower ability operation time by half to 10 sek. Modified skill which reacquire snb spec + mastery point + hit and gives 5 pt block and some 700 armor (with out further investment in vaul) seems to fit perfectly this place in path
+ Move RF to 13 pt position and create new ability for snb spec. In fact i think vaul tree lacks good aoe finisher + effect to be viable as a self sustained path. For example such skill might copy effect of wp no cooldown smite (normal dmg) or 1 sek casting soulfire (spirit dmg) + aoe interrupt with 5 sek cool down
Such change might lead to create new build variation for smb sm like
waronlinebuilder.org - Sword Master build
or like this
waronlinebuilder.org - Sword Master build
Last edited by Charon on Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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daniilpb
Posts: 591

Re: [SM] Crushing Advance [Close Date Apr 30]

Post#5 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:04 pm

Charon wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:54 pm
Generally speaking... currently vaul tree is a bit under performing or at most have only supporting role as a back up for khain or hoeth tree. It create a space to possible changes than might give snb spec more flavor.
First of all crushing advance should not be placed where it is now, it is not bad.... simply it is not on a par with other 13poits skills.
+ so maybe ... replace CA with Redirected force (one of worst skills in the game) and lower ability operation time by half to 10 sek. Skill with reacquire snb spec + mastery point + hit and gives 5 pt block and some 700 armor (with out further investment in vaul) seems fit this place in path
+ Move RF to 13 pt position and create new ability for snb spec. In fact i think vaul tree lack good aoe finisher + effect to be viable as a self sustained path. For example such skill might copy effect of wp no cooldown smite (normal dmg) or 1 sek casting soulfire (spirit dmg) + aoe interrupt with 5 sek cool down
Such change might lead to create new build variation for smb sm like
waronlinebuilder.org - Sword Master build
or like this
waronlinebuilder.org - Sword Master build
Spoiler:
You’d better stick to the actual proposal of this thread. Or make your own proposal with all these ideas. But read Balance Forum rules first.
I’m up for both options of OP’s solution 2.
But I doubt it would resurrect the tree. But it may work just as a little step towards full rework of the tree.
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Posts: 1970

Re: [SM] Crushing Advance [Close Date Apr 30]

Post#6 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:06 pm

Spoiler:
Tesq wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:17 am
Problem:
1-double weaknss for the self buff component
A-armor and block buff component can be shattered
B-require you to hit

2-The skill effect is pretty..."basic" for a 13 pt skill, the SM seems not a lot in line with the other tanks in durability in s+b especially when going mass scale. (the armor component don't stack and is just few 100-200 point more than a potion)

N.B: the interrupt component is single target so is just a small addition while nice is not really that good especially where this skill is used (oRvR). But itìs still usefull and make nice the skill as a whole for 13 pt ; just the buff effect feel lackluster

Solution for each problem:
1-make the skill only require you to hit and change the components effects from enchantment to buff (so only 1 weakness instead 2)

2-here i think of 2 alternaive solutions 1 is weaker and 1 is stronger or anyway any of those have strong /weak potentiality
A- the block should became 10% (10% + armor seems k as additonal 13pt avoidace skill)
B- the armor buff stack similary to what do the BG ones

N.B: i dont see well the chance to give a tank a very spamable aoe interrupt, so i think the possible fix should be more into the defensive side rather than the support one; so the interrut component should remain st as it is now. Also even if burden with a higher CD then the def buff component will basically loose his reliability , i belive it shine more in currently implementation, st but usable every 10 sec.

N.B.B: The CD while feeling low is that way to allow the skill to also be used as interrupt and so it should not be used as motivation to disallow the fix

In regards to interrupts: SMs have 1 Interrupt(Taunt) standard. They have 2 others that they can spec for in CA and WW. WW is also a Silence, and with the general requirement to coordinate WW precludes it's use as an Interrupt in the strict sense. CA is the 10s CD interrupt you need to stop being Detaunted and ignored as a SnB. With a CT increaser, SMs interrupt capability is quite high. As an ORvR mechanic, correct. Interrupts are rarely able to be used viably. In 6v6 or SCs however, well used interrupts are far more than a "small addition". Tesq is correct, that no Tank should have a semi-spammable AoE interrupt. That would be broken AF. I understand interrupts are not something everyone uses proactively, since in ORvR it's meh. But you should consider their use in smaller scale for balancing.

I do agree CA is weak and could use some help. In regards to the options listed to change, I don't believe changing the buff type is possible(could be wrong my memory isn't exactly Eidetic). Increasing Block amount would be nice, but giving SM a 200% uptime stackable armor buff is a little OP. The BG variant is a 50% uptime(but also comes with the amazing crit reduction, and shared with DP).

Increasing the CD of CA would seem to neuter the skill rather than buff it imo, decreasing the buff time to 10s would be a fair alternative though. However, if the intention is to make the SnB SM tankier, w/o making the game needlessly complicated, possibly change the Buff to +10% block rate, -5% armor pen for 20s. With a 200% uptime, CA could still be used proactively as an Interrupt, would increase your armor's effectiveness, useful block bonus, all without having to make more things stack that theoretically shouldn't.

dansari
Posts: 2479

Re: [SM] Crushing Advance [Close Date Apr 30]

Post#7 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:53 am

Torquemadra wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:08 am
Worth noting this shouldnt be a 13 point ability, crashing wave should be and Im inclined to swap them back.
Even then, if it doesn't stack with armor pot it's hardly worth taking that far up vaul imo
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Rydiak
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Re: [SM] Crushing Advance [Close Date Apr 30]

Post#8 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:05 am

dansari wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:53 am
Torquemadra wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:08 am
Worth noting this shouldnt be a 13 point ability, crashing wave should be and Im inclined to swap them back.
Even then, if it doesn't stack with armor pot it's hardly worth taking that far up vaul imo
Crushing Advance would be much better at 9 instead of 13, and Crashing Wave is strong enough to be 13. Since the armor doesn't stack with an armor potion, a buff to the block chance would be most welcome (proposal 2A), but it would have to be small enough as to not make the ability OP for a 9 pointer.
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Aethilmar
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Re: [SM] Crushing Advance [Close Date Apr 30]

Post#9 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:08 am

If you want to buff CA to make it actually worth speccing into please do. But for the love of Vaul don't move CW from the 9-point position. That is the only particularly useful general-purpose utility that a SM has AND it makes both the Khaine and Hoethe builds actually useful for setting up kills or cleaning DPS off your squishies.

The SM has a lot of problems from being a crappy DPS wannabe to being an ineffective "anti-magic" tank to not really being particularly tanky no matter how far up in Vaul you go right now. It's actually kind of insane how other than challenge and guard a Guardian WL has more damage and survivability than a DPS SM but with all the utility of a Vaul and Hoethe.

But CW being accessible to both ends of the build spectrum at least mitigates that a bit.

Anyway, end of alarmed rant and, as always, thank you for resurrecting the game.

Charon
Posts: 151

Re: [SM] Crushing Advance [Close Date Apr 30]

Post#10 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:19 am

Aethilmar wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:08 am
If you want to buff CA to make it actually worth speccing into please do. But for the love of Vaul don't move CW from the 9-point position. That is the only particularly useful general-purpose utility that a SM has AND it makes both the Khaine and Hoethe builds actually useful for setting up kills or cleaning DPS off your squishies.

The SM has a lot of problems from being a crappy DPS wannabe to being an ineffective "anti-magic" tank to not really being particularly tanky no matter how far up in Vaul you go right now. It's actually kind of insane how other than challenge and guard a Guardian WL has more damage and survivability than a DPS SM but with all the utility of a Vaul and Hoethe.

But CW being accessible to both ends of the build spectrum at least mitigates that a bit.

Anyway, end of alarmed rant and, as always, thank you for resurrecting the game.
exactly this if you move CW to 13 pt you will destroy last thing that make vaul tree useful. And strongly weaken current main smb spec
waronlinebuilder.org - Sword Master build
I want remind you that Vaul SM has currently Redirected Force in roster - total crap ability so if you going to change this path don't forget changing also RF

p.s. about my last proposition - aoe interrupt - was only possible example nothing more
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RoR - Morrguard Huss - sometimes healer
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