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[Warrior Priest]Absence of Faith

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Bretin
Posts: 929

Re: [Warrior Priest]Absence of Faith

Post#81 » Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:03 am

magter wrote:The problem though is that even if the damage is not comparable with either slayer or witch hunter, the WP has way more survivability. Consider that the WP has medium armor, like slayers, but unlike slayers, don't have to deal with a rage mechanic that would bring them down from medium armor to low armor or deal with the light armor of WHs. On top of that, 2h WPs have an AoE detaunt which further increases their survivability.
you made sure to kept on reading after the marked part in which i said: "The dps he has to be compared to in a 6 man. With less pressure the removal of an hd may become unnecessary in certain situations and in general less impactful." right?

About light armor/medium armor on slayer/wh: both of these classes have an AoE detaunt, a rootbreaker which doesn't rely on m2, offensive morals and a disengage. WP has none of them (unless you count stagger m3 or drop your only cc break) + less damage. therefore he offers utility and durability; for me that's a fair trade.

magter wrote:Consider this situation... 50% AoE detaunt, plus 50% guard (albeit damaging the tank in the process), and 30% challenge. The AoE detaunt and challenge don't have any drawbacks that guard has and even then it's debatable how much of a drawback guard is with high parry and block on tanks. You're basically taking 17.5% of what you would normally take, considering that the detaunt has no downtime due to both being 15 seconds long.

If the argument is to avoid attacking the WP until last, well then the constant damage, as well as the heal debuff, will eventually drain the healer's resources and you would outlast the enemy. Get two WPs in the same party and you are virtually unkillable... sure you won't deal as much damage as a WH, but you're taking WAY less damage as well. This just screams cheese for me...

I would be singing a different tune if the AoE detaunt required you to use a tactic, but because any idiot with a 2h gets it, well you then can see how stupidly retarded this would become.

You should take your own advise and wait 'til T4 before changing things. ;)
magter wrote:Huh... it used to for the longest time on Live. RoR might be different. :?

EDIT: I just checked it on npc mobs and it does stack... dunno about players though... will do that tomorrow.
wrong. i have no idea under which circumstances you were testing this but detaunt and guard never stacked in WAR unlike they were based on 2 different sources such as ability detaunt and proc detaunt e.g. WP/DoK dark promise set (which got fixed immediatly after ppl started using it) or shaman tactic + ability. your math is actually based on which formula? i tried to re-calculate it but honestly this seems too high for me. if you try to come up with a post like this i suggest to make sure to check your argument is based on something. i'm sorry to disappoint you.

ps: can you maybe provide a video including your test? would be interessting :P

Penril wrote:Doks have the exact same "problem" (i dont consider having to choose from several good tactics a problem). They still need to stack crit, while the proposed change to AoF doesnt require it. And WP already got free AoE detaunt.

Sorry but i dont see a valid reason to just go ahead and changin AoF by itself. Link it to a tactic and im all for it.
then it should rather be discussed if the aoe detaunt is justified or not because the change of AoF would make the WP viable in terms of a group synergy while AoE detaunt is something for the lone wolves. it can also be discussed if it should be given to mdps DoKs if people really think this is necessary - i don't. WP has a lot of issues compared to DoK, having no healdebuff is one and the reason why no group runs him while DoK is a top tier dps class for destru. on top of that i assume both classes are perma guarded in any group setup due to their lack of disengage / anti cc. the AoE detaunt does not affect group PvP and that's why i don't see a problem with it; as stated before it's good for solo play whereas DoK provides more for the group - especially dmg - if compared to the WP.

Penril wrote:Fair enough. Im against it then, because you would be giving WPs the equivalent of 2 free tactics already when compared to Doks.

Give them a core tactic that reduces cd to 10 secs and changes AoF to 50% though and im ok with that. Maybe Divine Reward?
what's up with that mirror stuff? CoK is by far the best healdebuff in the game it has an 100% uptime with no CD and can be applied as AoE. AoF will be definitely a strong healdebuff but will stay worse than its mirror CoK - mirroring either this or marauders deadly clutch would be over the top. Actually AoF requires 10 mastery points and offers a 25% healdebuff with no damage on it including a 20s CD. i think it's pretty obvious why nobody would ever consider to run it. i'd rather take the 9 TT damage on my prayer by dumping the point into the tree if i had a WP.

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magter3001
Posts: 1284

Re: [Warrior Priest]Absence of Faith

Post#82 » Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:36 am

Bretin wrote:
magter wrote:The problem though is that even if the damage is not comparable with either slayer or witch hunter, the WP has way more survivability. Consider that the WP has medium armor, like slayers, but unlike slayers, don't have to deal with a rage mechanic that would bring them down from medium armor to low armor or deal with the light armor of WHs. On top of that, 2h WPs have an AoE detaunt which further increases their survivability.
you made sure to kept on reading after the marked part in which i said: "The dps he has to be compared to in a 6 man. With less pressure the removal of an hd may become unnecessary in certain situations and in general less impactful." right?

About light armor/medium armor on slayer/wh: both of these classes have an AoE detaunt, a rootbreaker which doesn't rely on m2, offensive morals and a disengage. WP has none of them (unless you count stagger m3 or drop your only cc break) + less damage. therefore he offers utility and durability; for me that's a fair trade.
My argument is that it's too much durability and if the HD is on a 10s cooldown, too much utility. Given that WPs can heal themselves with divine assault, the utility and ability to heal a focused target (be it yourself or other) for 350% of the damage you deal in SPIRIT DAMAGE. Given that most destro gear lacks spirit resist and the knight's ability to reduce all resists, that can be a pretty huge number for a single target heal. Slayers have to be specced in a certain tree to heal themselves (and only themselves) while WHs have to use a crappy tactic if they want self heals.

What WPs lack in damage, they make up for survivability... through self heals, detaunt, and medium armor. The utility would come from the curse heal debuff (uncleansable by DoKs), and the heals it provides whether to itself, the other dps, or another healer. The slayer, wh, or wl don't have the ability to heal others like that.

As for rootbreakers or snare breakers... those mdps don't have cleanse that WPs have. You can't treat a WP strictly as a dps, you have to account for what it provides in addition to the dps. You're telling me you never use your cleanse on your mdps DoK on others? or throw a HoT or heal with rend soul on someone other than yourself? :?

EDIT:
Sigimund wrote:http://www.returnofreckoning.com/forum/ ... 00#p105775

Ask for a manticore if you can get it to stack.
I've already said I tested this on an npc and guard stacked with detaunt... however I did not test it on a player which means my npc test is really irrelevant. If detaunt indeed doesn't stack with guard or challenge, then I would be okay with a heal debuff at 50% provided it remains at a 20 second cooldown. The reasoning for 20 seconds is because it might counter DoKs too severely.

A 50% heal debuff and changing all path of Wrath abilities to deal spirit damage I think would be a substantial buff for WPs that don't overkill the balance. ;)
Agrot 35/40 Aggychopp 32/40
Grelin of Magnus/Badlands ;)

Bretin
Posts: 929

Re: [Warrior Priest]Absence of Faith

Post#83 » Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:48 am

magter3001 wrote:My argument is that it's too much durability and if the HD is on a 10s cooldown, too much utility. Given that WPs can heal themselves with divine assault, the utility and ability to heal a focused target (be it yourself or other) for 350% of the damage you deal in SPIRIT DAMAGE. Given that most destro gear lacks spirit resist and the knight's ability to reduce all resists, that can be a pretty huge number for a single target heal. Slayers have to be specced in a certain tree to heal themselves (and only themselves) while WHs have to use a crappy tactic if they want self heals.

What WPs lack in damage, they make up for survivability... through self heals, detaunt, and medium armor. The utility would come from the curse heal debuff (uncleansable by DoKs), and the heals it provides whether to itself, the other dps, or another healer. The slayer, wh, or wl don't have the ability to heal others like that.
ok and where in all of that is the difference to a DoK? he can do exactly everything you mentioned in a better way than the WP does. destru biased much?

on a side note: chosen aura = kobs aura
magter3001 wrote:As for rootbreakers or snare breakers... those mdps don't have cleanse that WPs have. You can't treat a WP strictly as a dps, you have to account for what it provides in addition to the dps. You're telling me you never use your cleanse on your mdps DoK on others? or throw a HoT or heal with rend soul on someone other than yourself? :?
ofc i use all the mentioned abilities but i still don't get why it is okay to have it on all hybrid classes including the DoK but not on WP, the most lackluster mdps class ingame.

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magter3001
Posts: 1284

Re: [Warrior Priest]Absence of Faith

Post#84 » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:04 am

Bretin wrote: ok and where in all of that is the difference to a DoK? he can do exactly everything you mentioned in a better way than the WP does. destru biased much?

on a side note: chosen aura = kobs aura

ofc i use all the mentioned abilities but i still don't get why it is okay to have it on all classes including the DoK but not on WP, the most lackluster mdps class ingame.
One difference is that WPs already have an AoE detaunt. Second, not all classes have an incoming heal debuff, especially one at 50%. Thirdly, order tanks, such as KotBS and IB, give out buffs to groups and individual classes far better than their destro counterparts. In a 1v1 situation, DoKs are better than WPs but in a 6v6 situation things are different. If you bring your WP with your heal debuff (uncleansable by DoKs) and a WH with crit modifier getting 20% extra crit from the knight and survivability buffs from the IB, you basically balance the damage you lose by bringing a WP through the WH's deeps (and utility through knockdown) and again the heal debuff as well as the survivability from the WP. In that case... your healers would really only need to worry about the WH, or at least more than the WP.

On your side note, the way the resist aura works is it buffs ur friendlies by twice of that it debuffs from your enemies. The buff is also at 100ft range where as the debuff is within 30ft. The problem though is that if you have a knight and the enemy has a chosen, the chosen aura is only half as good if both are specced evenly in the right tree and a little more than half if not. Given that destro lacks spirit resists in it's gear, the damage that can be done (but more so healing) by divine assault provides the WP with great utility for the group and survivability for himself. ;)
Agrot 35/40 Aggychopp 32/40
Grelin of Magnus/Badlands ;)

Bretin
Posts: 929

Re: [Warrior Priest]Absence of Faith

Post#85 » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:13 am

magter3001 wrote:I've already said I tested this on an npc and guard stacked with detaunt... however I did not test it on a player which means my npc test is really irrelevant. If detaunt indeed doesn't stack with guard or challenge, then I would be okay with a heal debuff at 50% provided it remains at a 20 second cooldown. The reasoning for 20 seconds is because it might counter DoKs too severely.

A 50% heal debuff and changing all path of Wrath abilities to deal spirit damage I think would be a substantial buff for WPs that don't overkill the balance.
again not sure if srs or troll

" changing all path of Wrath abilities to deal spirit damage I think would be a substantial buff for WPs that don't overkill the balance."

what is this? "don't overkill"... that's ridiculous and would beam him into a next lvl zone.

about the rest:
DoK is already able to cleanse all healdebuffs whereas WP is limited and not able to purge the most significant hds ingame (mrd, we, sh) and a not so significant one (shaman). the DoKs CoK can be counted as unpurgable too due to the fact it has wether CD nor ICD and is usually covered - even tho it would get purged CoK it's reapplied in a split second. now you would have ONE healdebuff which couldn't be purged by the no-brain AoE purge of DoK and it would be too good? i honestly like arguing and read everyones opinion about my suggestion but i would also appreciate if you would think about the arguments at least one second. that again would require that you'd realize the advantages of your main realm for one time and stay neutral.

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magter3001
Posts: 1284

Re: [Warrior Priest]Absence of Faith

Post#86 » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:27 am

Bretin wrote:
about the rest:
DoK is already able to cleanse all healdebuffs whereas WP is limited and not able to purge the most significant hds ingame (mrd, we, sh) and a not so significant one (shaman). the DoKs CoK can be counted as unpurgable too due to the fact it has wether CD nor ICD and is usually covered - even tho it would get purged CoK it's reapplied in a split second. now you would have ONE healdebuff which couldn't be purged by the no-brain AoE purge of DoK and it would be too good? i honestly like arguing and read everyones opinion about my suggestion but i would also appreciate if you would think about the arguments at least one second. that again would require that you'd realize the advantages of your main realm for one time and stay neutral.
The DoKs may cleanse all of incoming heal debuffs but none of the outgoing heal debuffs (iirc) with the IB ougoing heal debuff being the most important one (20s). DoKs also have to deal with an AoE SL as opposed to WPs who never face a melee squig herder. DoKs also can't cleanse the AoE snares that Order tanks have in KotBS aoe snare and IB snare while WPs only have to worry about BO snare (at level 35).

The problem you're having is making an argument of black and white. You're forgetting about all the other colors that make up the game. You can't just compare a heal debuff with another heal debuff... you have to see how they work in the grand scheme of things.

Sure we can go back and forth with the pros and cons of both sides and both classes, which we have been, but it doesn't do us good if don't get into the nitty gritty part of balance. What I've been trying to do is offer reasons why you can't have a 10s curse heal debuff and how it effect realm balance while you're giving your reason why it should. ;)
Agrot 35/40 Aggychopp 32/40
Grelin of Magnus/Badlands ;)

Bretin
Posts: 929

Re: [Warrior Priest]Absence of Faith

Post#87 » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:31 am

magter3001 wrote:One difference is that WPs already have an AoE detaunt. Second, not all classes have an incoming heal debuff, especially one at 50%. Thirdly, order tanks, such as KotBS and IB, give out buffs to groups and individual classes far better than their destro counterparts. In a 1v1 situation, DoKs are better than WPs but in a 6v6 situation things are different. If you bring your WP with your heal debuff (uncleansable by DoKs) and a WH with crit modifier getting 20% extra crit from the knight and survivability buffs from the IB, you basically balance the damage you lose by bringing a WP through the WH's deeps (and utility through knockdown) and again the heal debuff as well as the survivability from the WP. In that case... your healers would really only need to worry about the WH, or at least more than the WP.
okay since we're here and you are refering to 6vs6:

1.) AoE detaunt has no impact since the WP will be the one who is guarded mainly while the tank who is guarding the mentioned WH and responsible for swaps
2.) I assume every destru premade will bring a marauder to a 6vs6, a class who can take down a WH all by himself through guard and heal
3.) Destru tanks provide 2x M4 every minute a feature order can't compete with. if you think crit buffs can, well congrats m8 you disgraced yourself again
4.) if running WP+WH, you lack a high armor debuff, assuming you're fighting a DoK/Mrd group most of your dmg will land in mitigation nirvana
5.) The WP wouldn't be able to purge wether CoK due to it's refreshment nor Mrd's armor, wounds or heal debuff
6.) KD is usually provided by tanks in a 6vs6 so no special utility on the WH here
7.) survivability of the group which would be provided by a DoK in such a scenario would be way better, thanks to devour essence & the low mitigation sponsored by mrds uncleansable armor debuff

magter3001 wrote:Given that destro lacks spirit resists in it's gear, the damage that can be done (but more so healing) by divine assault provides the WP with great utility for the group and survivability for himself.
if you think spirit resistance is a problem, you can slot it or adapt your jewelery. also tanks have an abiliity which is called taunt, it can be used to interrupt a channel, you should get used to it.
Last edited by Bretin on Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:55 am, edited 3 times in total.

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magter3001
Posts: 1284

Re: [Warrior Priest]Absence of Faith

Post#88 » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:36 am

Bretin wrote:
again not sure if srs or troll

" changing all path of Wrath abilities to deal spirit damage I think would be a substantial buff for WPs that don't overkill the balance."

what is this? "don't overkill"... that's ridiculous and would beam him into a next lvl zone.
I'm not so sure about the next level zone as Sigmar's Fist and Sigmar's Radiance are not effected since they are in the grace tree. The only skill that I think would have to be excluded in the wrath tree would be Hammer of Wrath as it is a finisher... other than that though the abilities that are effect are Bludgeon (which doesn't heal you and would have to be used instead of Sigmar's Radiance if you want the damage), Castigation which is a DoT and ini debuff, Smite which is an AoE, and lastly weight of guilt which would do some good damage. All the other abilities are already spirit based...

This would all be if the HD was at 20 seconds (not 10s) as it would force you to pick a window of opportunity, a window in which if the enemy notices, could kite away. ;)


Btw, let me go to sleep already :lol:
Agrot 35/40 Aggychopp 32/40
Grelin of Magnus/Badlands ;)

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Bretin
Posts: 929

Re: [Warrior Priest]Absence of Faith

Post#89 » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:39 am

magter3001 wrote:The DoKs may cleanse all of incoming heal debuffs but none of the outgoing heal debuffs (iirc) with the IB ougoing heal debuff being the most important one (20s).
can be avoided by movement and positioning = ... issue. also i think we're discussing incoming healdebuffs not outgoing.
but again, is it fair that debuff types on order are splitted 4/4/4 and destru 3 hex/4 curse/5 ailment?

magter3001 wrote:DoKs also have to deal with an AoE SL as opposed to WPs who never face a melee squig herder. DoKs also can't cleanse the AoE snares that Order tanks have in KotBS aoe snare and IB snare while WPs only have to worry about BO snare (at level 35).
Order has to deal with the marauder, SL on 20 targets and 20 sec duration would be fair compared to it. about snare: BOs snare is spamable and has no CD it can make up for both KotBS and IB.
magter3001 wrote:The problem you're having is making an argument of black and white. You're forgetting about all the other colors that make up the game. You can't just compare a heal debuff with another heal debuff... you have to see how they work in the grand scheme of things.
actually i don't, i try to make a class viable to provide more than 1 trick pony specs and i try to keep out my realm favored opinion at all.

Bretin
Posts: 929

Re: [Warrior Priest]Absence of Faith

Post#90 » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:48 am

magter3001 wrote:I'm not so sure about the next level zone as Sigmar's Fist and Sigmar's Radiance are not effected since they are in the grace tree. The only skill that I think would have to be excluded in the wrath tree would be Hammer of Wrath as it is a finisher... other than that though the abilities that are effect are Bludgeon (which doesn't heal you and would have to be used instead of Sigmar's Radiance if you want the damage), Castigation which is a DoT and ini debuff, Smite which is an AoE, and lastly weight of guilt which would do some good damage. All the other abilities are already spirit based...

This would all be if the HD was at 20 seconds (not 10s) as it would force you to pick a window of opportunity, a window in which if the enemy notices, could kite away.

Btw, let me go to sleep already
see now you start to exclude yourself...
about Bludgeon: it is your bread and butter anytimer since your job is not to spam heal if you're in the role of a dps WP but to kill sh*t. having a anytimer dealing spirit dmg in combination of dots and a buffed prayer (tactic) would be literally too much and beam this class into his own zone. on the one hand you're complaining about the lack of resistance and the power of kotbs on the other hand you suggest to give him a full kit based on spirit damage (much logic ;) ) and forgot about the SM. let's just combine your buffed WP with a SM and his stacking resistance debuff and see how balanced it will become.

you should really go sleep and think about what you suggest :P

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