you made sure to kept on reading after the marked part in which i said: "The dps he has to be compared to in a 6 man. With less pressure the removal of an hd may become unnecessary in certain situations and in general less impactful." right?magter wrote:The problem though is that even if the damage is not comparable with either slayer or witch hunter, the WP has way more survivability. Consider that the WP has medium armor, like slayers, but unlike slayers, don't have to deal with a rage mechanic that would bring them down from medium armor to low armor or deal with the light armor of WHs. On top of that, 2h WPs have an AoE detaunt which further increases their survivability.
About light armor/medium armor on slayer/wh: both of these classes have an AoE detaunt, a rootbreaker which doesn't rely on m2, offensive morals and a disengage. WP has none of them (unless you count stagger m3 or drop your only cc break) + less damage. therefore he offers utility and durability; for me that's a fair trade.
magter wrote:Consider this situation... 50% AoE detaunt, plus 50% guard (albeit damaging the tank in the process), and 30% challenge. The AoE detaunt and challenge don't have any drawbacks that guard has and even then it's debatable how much of a drawback guard is with high parry and block on tanks. You're basically taking 17.5% of what you would normally take, considering that the detaunt has no downtime due to both being 15 seconds long.
If the argument is to avoid attacking the WP until last, well then the constant damage, as well as the heal debuff, will eventually drain the healer's resources and you would outlast the enemy. Get two WPs in the same party and you are virtually unkillable... sure you won't deal as much damage as a WH, but you're taking WAY less damage as well. This just screams cheese for me...
I would be singing a different tune if the AoE detaunt required you to use a tactic, but because any idiot with a 2h gets it, well you then can see how stupidly retarded this would become.
You should take your own advise and wait 'til T4 before changing things.
wrong. i have no idea under which circumstances you were testing this but detaunt and guard never stacked in WAR unlike they were based on 2 different sources such as ability detaunt and proc detaunt e.g. WP/DoK dark promise set (which got fixed immediatly after ppl started using it) or shaman tactic + ability. your math is actually based on which formula? i tried to re-calculate it but honestly this seems too high for me. if you try to come up with a post like this i suggest to make sure to check your argument is based on something. i'm sorry to disappoint you.magter wrote:Huh... it used to for the longest time on Live. RoR might be different.
EDIT: I just checked it on npc mobs and it does stack... dunno about players though... will do that tomorrow.
ps: can you maybe provide a video including your test? would be interessting

then it should rather be discussed if the aoe detaunt is justified or not because the change of AoF would make the WP viable in terms of a group synergy while AoE detaunt is something for the lone wolves. it can also be discussed if it should be given to mdps DoKs if people really think this is necessary - i don't. WP has a lot of issues compared to DoK, having no healdebuff is one and the reason why no group runs him while DoK is a top tier dps class for destru. on top of that i assume both classes are perma guarded in any group setup due to their lack of disengage / anti cc. the AoE detaunt does not affect group PvP and that's why i don't see a problem with it; as stated before it's good for solo play whereas DoK provides more for the group - especially dmg - if compared to the WP.Penril wrote:Doks have the exact same "problem" (i dont consider having to choose from several good tactics a problem). They still need to stack crit, while the proposed change to AoF doesnt require it. And WP already got free AoE detaunt.
Sorry but i dont see a valid reason to just go ahead and changin AoF by itself. Link it to a tactic and im all for it.
what's up with that mirror stuff? CoK is by far the best healdebuff in the game it has an 100% uptime with no CD and can be applied as AoE. AoF will be definitely a strong healdebuff but will stay worse than its mirror CoK - mirroring either this or marauders deadly clutch would be over the top. Actually AoF requires 10 mastery points and offers a 25% healdebuff with no damage on it including a 20s CD. i think it's pretty obvious why nobody would ever consider to run it. i'd rather take the 9 TT damage on my prayer by dumping the point into the tree if i had a WP.Penril wrote:Fair enough. Im against it then, because you would be giving WPs the equivalent of 2 free tactics already when compared to Doks.
Give them a core tactic that reduces cd to 10 secs and changes AoF to 50% though and im ok with that. Maybe Divine Reward?