WE/WH and their ROLE in ORvR

[Manatikik]

Take WL in WB

I mean, TW is noob enough to take a WH along so why not :p

[Faef]

I raised the proposal, but that was based on thinking everything was supposed to be balanced on wb vs wb, which appears to have been incorrect.

We excel at small scale/scouting the lakes, but has anyone actually spent any time in the lakes recently? It wasn't easy, by any means, to escape the masses before, but now with large numbers, dots breaking stealth (and the ease with which you acquire multiple dots, therefore increasing the chance) is a problem. You engage single targets and pray no one turns up, otherwise there's no chance of escape. I've even slotted cw2 to work around this, but once cleansed, its 50/50 whether the mob chasing me are able to land further, several dots, during the cast time of stealth.

I don't disagree with dots affecting stealth, but i do take issue with not having a way to counter this. If we are saying that small scale is the viable role we/wh excel at then they should have an option to escape. I don't think having to slot a renown ability so that my mechanic does its job some of the time, is particularly fair.

@Torque am i wasting my time if i raise a proposal about this? It will essentially be the ability to fire self buffing skills from stealth.

You understand of course I play a WH and a WE, you have ways to counter dots in disrupt from stacking the stat itself and you can pop shroud or elixir of the cauldron before going in stealth as stealthbreak is only on damage, not disrupt and its chance is pretty low even on damage, sometimes you lose out, such is life.

As they stand they do the job just fine and will only have their role expanded upon as further value is dialed into the BOs

As to a proposal you can make any you like, how it progresses I cant tell you as lack a crystal ball.

I know you have one. I have som, i've not once had it cancel out dots applied to me, are all dots considered magical attacks and thus be disrupted? Because that doesnt seem to be working.

Also, grant me a bit of bloody intelligence, I'm not complaining about an occasional stealth break due to damage, but consistent of it breaking when having acquired many dots (thus miles greater than 12% chance), which is easy to do.

As for the sarcasm, you ask for people to be polite, yet that's how you reply, its a two way street you know.

[Hastykrasty]

An interesting question should be: "Is their current role fun?".

-Capping empty flags, or killing afkers, for shure it's not. When resources were implemented it was more appealing (and rewarding), but now they will have a minor impact on the campaign. (Steling supplies from the unprepared enemy was the perfect example of Sun Tzu's theory application). Furthermore, many other (dps) classes can do this.
-Scouting, important for sure, but everybody can do it, and stealth isn't necessary. However, not so entertaining.
-Ganking is where they excell, let's face it, and is a lot of fun if you are decently prepared for it, with a little dose of skill and boldness.

By their concept they should be the masters of Infiltration, Assassination and Guerrilla warfare. But, also other classes can perform well in this enviroment (it doesn't take much for other dps to hide behind a rock and unleash death upon an unaware soloer passing by). For shure WH/WEs have an easier life in this, let's be clear. Unfortunately we can't say the opposite with switched roles in larger scale.
Yet, the time for capping a flag is the same for WH/WEs as any other class, and the same goes for postern bypass abilities.

Let me make an example of what I think: When I play SCs with my WH I can easily apply those fancy Sun Tzu tactics and I feel rewarded doing so (not only from a renown point of view). I can sneak behind the enemy and cap a flag/object, and I had really great moments in doing so, being able to cap flags while destro were fighting order at wc, and scoring more point for the team, is really fun.
Now in rvr we have portals (which I support), and resources generated "staticaly" by sitting at flags (which I support too). However this limits in a certain way the possible tactical approaches for a WH/WE.

With the old carrier system a WH could try to delay (or steal) resources from the enemy, forcing them to escort the carrier and splitting their forces (Divide et impera) and FEELING to make an impact on the campaign. Nowadays I can't say the same, I don't feel so involved.

Furthermore, I agree with Hao's point: in instanced organised 24v24 they have potential, unluckly we will not see them for a while.

Ending: This is not a complain or "free blaming", but I wanted to adress the concept of what a player feel/enjoy(from an external point of view).
Provocation: maybe giving WH/WEs some class related bonus for RvR campaign (like faster BO's capture, more resource generation, faster postern bypass or whatever, even slight speed bonus for incoming supply carrying) would improve their status.

[Faef]

Spoiler:

You understand of course I play a WH and a WE, you have ways to counter dots in disrupt from stacking the stat itself and you can pop shroud or elixir of the cauldron before going in stealth as stealthbreak is only on damage, not disrupt and its chance is pretty low even on damage, sometimes you lose out, such is life.

As they stand they do the job just fine and will only have their role expanded upon as further value is dialed into the BOs

As to a proposal you can make any you like, how it progresses I cant tell you as lack a crystal ball.

I know you have one. I have som, i've not once had it cancel out dots applied to me, are all dots considered magical attacks and thus be disrupted? Because that doesnt seem to be working.

Also, grant me a bit of bloody intelligence, I'm not complaining about an occasional stealth break due to damage, but consistent of it breaking when having acquired many dots (thus miles greater than 12% chance), which is easy to do.

As for the sarcasm, you ask for people to be polite, yet that's how you reply, its a two way street you know.

No sarcasm was intended, how you take things I cannot control, nothing I said was rude or was intended to insult you. Regarding proposals there is a process to follow and I have literally no way of knowing how you will present things so an answer on nothing more than "It will essentially be the ability to fire self buffing skills from stealth" isnt going to be forthcoming as would do you a disservice.

I do know the values of the dot chances, how its built and from my own play experience, when it had a chance to break ON DEFENCE as well as ON DAMAGE it was a little high, hence I changed it to on damage only.

oh so the crystal ball comment wasn't sarcasm, you actually genuinely don't have a crystal ball to gaze upon, how stupid of me not to take that literally. I'm not being sarcastic either here, i am merely pointing out my mistake.

So, you haven't confirmed what I asked, you said som was a way of disrupting dots, in fact if that's true it should be guaranteed as its 100% disrupt. So all dots are considered magical attacks and thus, if i have dots on me, I can pop som, then stealth should be no problem, correct?

Warning given for this post, I suggest against this level of passive agression. - Torque

[Fallenkezef]

You have to use the class as it is and not try to make it into something else.

I saw these same arguments back when the game was live and I'm always reminded of my old guild. Our gaffer's main was a WH and he knew the class. When we did rvr we banned WH's from the main warband but set up a second group made up solely of the guild's WHs.

We nicknamed this group "the regiment" and we'd have between 4 and 9 WH's, depending on turn out, keeping them and our main WB in touch via teamspeak.

The regiment would be our spec ops group, flanking, ganking and making a nuisance as and when they where needed while the warband would lock the zone down and take/defend keeps. They played to their strength while being a vital and active part of the bigger picture.

I remember one glorious gate defence when the dessies fully commited and the regiment came in behind and focus-killed the healers. The poor dessies split their focus between the push and taking down the 5 WH's chewing up their squishies and the whole assault fell apart.

[Faef]

Unbelievable double standards you have there.

Anyway, to the question please:

You said som was a way of disrupting dots, in fact if that's true it should be guaranteed as its 100% disrupt. So all dots are considered magical attacks and thus, if i have dots on me, I can pop som, then stealth should be no problem, correct?

[peterthepan3]

Quite a few high RR WHs have the same concerns, i.e. that DoTs should not be able to negate an entire mechanic. WH is incredibly dependent on stealth to actualise its potential.

DoTs are, on the whole, fire-and-forget. Stealth is a class mechanic. Even if it's a 12% chance, if you have a load of DoTs on you that have been spammed by an AoE magus, not only do you have to fight the pushback to initiate stealth, but now you also have a chance to have your class mechanic negated because of fire-and-forget damage.

I honestly think Stealth should be exempt from DoTs breaking it, but perhaps that warrants a balance discussion.

[Spierron]

Quite a few high RR WHs have the same concerns, i.e. that DoTs should not be able to negate an entire mechanic. WH is incredibly dependent on stealth to actualise its potential.

DoTs are, on the whole, fire-and-forget. Stealth is a class mechanic. Even if it's a 12% chance, if you have a load of DoTs on you that have been spammed by an AoE magus, not only do you have to fight the pushback to initiate stealth, but now you also have a chance to have your class mechanic negated because of fire-and-forget damage.

I honestly think Stealth should be exempt from DoTs breaking it, but perhaps that warrants a balance discussion.

it's the same for WE

An interesting question should be: "Is their current role fun?".

Yes we love it.

For play in zerg, switch character.

Kyranria, NPNB

[Coma]

You understand of course I play a WH and a WE, you have ways to counter dots in disrupt from stacking the stat itself and you can pop shroud or elixir of the cauldron before going in stealth as stealthbreak is only on damage, not disrupt and its chance is pretty low even on damage, sometimes you lose out, such is life.

As they stand they do the job just fine and will only have their role expanded upon as further value is dialed into the BOs

As to a proposal you can make any you like, how it progresses I cant tell you as lack a crystal ball.

I know you have one. I have som, i've not once had it cancel out dots applied to me, are all dots considered magical attacks and thus be disrupted? Because that doesnt seem to be working.

Also, grant me a bit of bloody intelligence, I'm not complaining about an occasional stealth break due to damage, but consistent of it breaking when having acquired many dots (thus miles greater than 12% chance), which is easy to do.

As for the sarcasm, you ask for people to be polite, yet that's how you reply, its a two way street you know.

No sarcasm was intended, how you take things I cannot control, nothing I said was rude or was intended to insult you. Regarding proposals there is a process to follow and I have literally no way of knowing how you will present things so an answer on nothing more than "It will essentially be the ability to fire self buffing skills from stealth" isnt going to be forthcoming as would do you a disservice.

I do know the values of the dot chances, how its built and from my own play experience, when it had a chance to break ON DEFENCE as well as ON DAMAGE it was a little high, hence I changed it to on damage only.

except that magus dots are disruptable and so affected by SoM... eng dot instead goes against dodge and so are not affected by EoC ^^' so... Phosforous, acid and frag are the wrost enemy of WE... and among the most commos skill you see in the lakes... (and this deprive WE of their Chance to flank and reach those vulnerable target they should aim for...

Personally I'm not completely against stealth being broken by damage and that include DoT damage... my only concern is with AoE dot... after all if you specifically target me with a DoT it's fine that it makes my life harder... but just trowing a few AoE arounf and subjecting me to multiple ceck per second that invalidates a mechanic seem a little too much... at least a reduced chance to break stealth on AoE dot compared to ST DoT should be much more balanced

[bwdaWAR]

Dance of Doom could be overhauled to do some sort of group buff perhaps to give WBs a reason to invite WEs? As far as I know, it's completely useless anyways since it does the same damage as Sever Nerve just channeled over 3s instead of instant.