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[General] Morale Damage

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Karast
Posts: 554

Re: [General] Morale Damage

Post#61 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:41 pm

Spoiler:
Darosh wrote: Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:17 pm
Karast wrote: Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:11 pm Unless if you have 10-12 instants going off at the same time, and no lone WB has that.
Slightly OT:
Spoiler:
Have a look at how Phalanx ran their order warbands (their footage should still be on the forums), it did require setup (had them kite and consistently move/use cannonfodder/AM pumps) but there is virtually no counter to 5-8 M4 (BH) ranged, instant PBAoE that totals anywhere between 8k and roughly 12,8k undefendable damage ~ disregarding the ST component ~ followed up by FB+FFB rotations (rather FB[FF]->BH->FBB).

Just because people aren't running as tightly and neatly organised as the allmighty Hao Youth, or choose to mindlessly charge twice or triple their number opting to soloely rely on M2, doesn't mean that morale bombs are trivial - easily or reliably counterable.
Wounds is essentially the one thing that isn't a coinflip ~ BH doesn't care about tank walls, punts or w/e... yet, effort (setup, coordination) required match BH's potential impact.

Imho, if all (damage) morales were adjusted to match BH requirements of coordination and setup there wouldn't be as much of an issue, considering that - as with all potent and potentially entirely gamebreaking things - barely anyone makes an effort to stray off the pug-meta that revolves around 'least effort imaginable', you would see damage morales used in a truely organized fashion (now that Phalanx is gone) once in your remaining lifetime and then never again.
Aza, do you mind creating a roadmap for tests etc? It might help structure discussions and such.
I am not trying to be salty or call you out on this Darosh, but those videos don't give a complete picture, and this is nothing on zerg. When you make a fights video, you show the good stuff. But get a few people and make a WB and then run BH and you will see it is no where near as functional as you might think it is, especially fighting an organized enemy WB like TUP.

Zerg never had an easy time with it, they ate a lot of wipes, and it never fully worked out for them. I was there, CNTK were the ones they used to front line while they tried to pump their way up to 4. It rarely worked unless you were 2v1 another WB since the fight was over before then otherwise. Or the destro zerg is simply big enough that you just get mowed down. That's the reality of the situation.

I'd really advise that dev's who are not knowledgeable about the current WB meta actually get stuck in a try to join a few sessions, just to see the tactics at play and what currently works or not, as well as the reason behind why people use, or don't use certain things. Right now these discussions often lack key view points and the same "You no you" and "X is better than Y", and "L2P" arguments comments just flood the threads.

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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2773

Re: [General] Morale Damage

Post#62 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:45 pm

Spoiler:
Acidic wrote: Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:33 pm
roadkillrobin wrote: Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:27 pm
peterthepan3 wrote: Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:17 pm

You can already avoid these '5 second deaths' by stacking wounds and honing your situational awareness.

I believe damage morales are essential in a large-scale RvR game in order to help smaller groups/WBs against larger odds, to push funnels, add some spice into stalemates, etc.
The original intent of morale dmg was moastly a meassure to deal with lvl and gear imbalances that would accure if one guild had all the best geared players and would dominate everyone else due to simple having better gear and and higher stats then everyone else. So it's implemented to simply give lowbies a chance against the top coz morale dmg doesn't care about stats/gear.
Don’t doubt it but not all design decisions are good ones, basically the morals are a simple to use high reward low risk , low investment tool which insta kills groups when used with just a little coordination.
No, I think it was horrible choise to impliment morale dmg in terms of game play. But you also have to take the buisnesss model into account. If there was no carrot to have the best gear and lvl and everything tried to be equal outcome then people would not invest time (subs) either. But on a free buisness model you can actually equate all those things with bolsters and less spikey gear difference.
Last edited by roadkillrobin on Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lileldys
Posts: 666

Re: [General] Morale Damage

Post#63 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:00 pm

Karast wrote: Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:41 pm ...
I'd really advise that dev's who are not knowledgeable about the current WB meta actually get stuck in a try to join a few sessions...
...
Yeh, we tried this in Kings Own multiple times throughout t3 and start of t4. Nobody joined. They lived in their own little world and refused to acknowledge anything we said.

I think we can look at converting some useless M2s/M3s into some kind of Morale soakers.

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Darks63
Posts: 651

Re: [General] Morale Damage

Post#64 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:11 pm

Adjusting the gain before adjusting the Morales seems a bit irresponsible to me. Morales bombing is already pretty potent and certain classes are alpha dogs of morale bombing while others are quite weak.
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Glorian
Posts: 4988

Re: [General] Morale Damage

Post#65 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:34 pm

Darks63 wrote: Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:11 pm Adjusting the gain before adjusting the Morales seems a bit irresponsible to me. Morales bombing is already pretty potent and certain classes are alpha dogs of morale bombing while others are quite weak.
Well as Aza said; one step after the next and it will not stop on moral gain rates.
So stay excited. ;)

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Ramasee
Posts: 457

Re: [General] Morale Damage

Post#66 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:39 pm

Darks63 wrote: Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:11 pm Adjusting the gain before adjusting the Morales seems a bit irresponsible to me. Morales bombing is already pretty potent and certain classes are alpha dogs of morale bombing while others are quite weak.
Adjusting and then cementing into place morale generation rates in terms of base generation, pumps, drains, and gear is hands down the first place to start balancing morales. All discussion about individual and category morales is going to have to use this information.

For instance, current M1s can be super powerful if they are generated 10s into a fight, and M2 is not generated until 3 min into a fight. So rate of generation is first, then power level of each breakpoint m1-m4 is next, followed by making each morale fit this power level.

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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: [General] Morale Damage

Post#67 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:52 pm

As glorian said lets test this out

If ppl are so sure that the alredy 20 sec for m2 now is fine lets wait when bw gona charge m2 with 10 sec from range with rain of fire then just wait for anything to came into range and drop.....

@note to ramasee Power genertion is easier to balance when you know for sure that morales NOT gona be a too strong addition otherwise the baindaid was till now use a low rate ; the stronger morales are the harder will be balance morale gain rate.
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Ramasee
Posts: 457

Re: [General] Morale Damage

Post#68 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:06 pm

Karast wrote: Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:41 pm
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Darosh wrote: Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:17 pm
Karast wrote: Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:11 pm Unless if you have 10-12 instants going off at the same time, and no lone WB has that.
Slightly OT:
Spoiler:
Have a look at how Phalanx ran their order warbands (their footage should still be on the forums), it did require setup (had them kite and consistently move/use cannonfodder/AM pumps) but there is virtually no counter to 5-8 M4 (BH) ranged, instant PBAoE that totals anywhere between 8k and roughly 12,8k undefendable damage ~ disregarding the ST component ~ followed up by FB+FFB rotations (rather FB[FF]->BH->FBB).

Just because people aren't running as tightly and neatly organised as the allmighty Hao Youth, or choose to mindlessly charge twice or triple their number opting to soloely rely on M2, doesn't mean that morale bombs are trivial - easily or reliably counterable.
Wounds is essentially the one thing that isn't a coinflip ~ BH doesn't care about tank walls, punts or w/e... yet, effort (setup, coordination) required match BH's potential impact.

Imho, if all (damage) morales were adjusted to match BH requirements of coordination and setup there wouldn't be as much of an issue, considering that - as with all potent and potentially entirely gamebreaking things - barely anyone makes an effort to stray off the pug-meta that revolves around 'least effort imaginable', you would see damage morales used in a truely organized fashion (now that Phalanx is gone) once in your remaining lifetime and then never again.
Aza, do you mind creating a roadmap for tests etc? It might help structure discussions and such.
I am not trying to be salty or call you out on this Darosh, but those videos don't give a complete picture, and this is nothing on zerg. When you make a fights video, you show the good stuff. But get a few people and make a WB and then run BH and you will see it is no where near as functional as you might think it is, especially fighting an organized enemy WB like TUP.

Zerg never had an easy time with it, they ate a lot of wipes, and it never fully worked out for them. I was there, CNTK were the ones they used to front line while they tried to pump their way up to 4. It rarely worked unless you were 2v1 another WB since the fight was over before then otherwise. Or the destro zerg is simply big enough that you just get mowed down. That's the reality of the situation.

I'd really advise that dev's who are not knowledgeable about the current WB meta actually get stuck in a try to join a few sessions, just to see the tactics at play and what currently works or not, as well as the reason behind why people use, or don't use certain things. Right now these discussions often lack key view points and the same "You no you" and "X is better than Y", and "L2P" arguments comments just flood the threads.
I was a member of zerg and I can shed quite a bit of light onto that particular situation. First, the hardest thing was to actually get a full warband of trained slaves (guild rank for zerg) and not have any pugs. Ideal situation (that we NEVER pulled off) would be 4 groups of 1x Knight, 1x ww SM, 2x BW (bh/bomb spec), 1x WP, 1x RP; replace one healer in 1-2 groups with pump/insta rez AMs. We never had 4x SM (usually me and sometimes horse), usually replacing them with extra knights or IBs. Second hardest was actually having destro around when we did get a full phalanx warband.

Our strategy was fluid depending on what guild(s) we were fighting and how many were fielding on the other side. Sometimes just using htl and ranged abilities for ~10s to generate BW M2 and running and flat bombing was all we needed. To get to M4 for 8 BWs with 2AMs in warband is like 40s? And some tanks will have M2 as well, although this was usually saved for keep fights or if we could clear a pug warband with abilities and knew an enemy warband was en-route. Almost nothing lives through 9,600 morale damage followed immediately by AoE, specially when AoE wounds debuffed by a Knight.

We did lose a lot of members during disengages. As one of our guildmates used to say, it isn't a wipe if some healers get away! Most of our unsuccessful ventures were during non-full warband days or when training newer members how to disengage properly, swap guards, charge-out (slayers), when to call safe, and other discord speaking practices. A-game nights/toons though? Can't say we lost too many engagements.

Destro side...was even easier to pull off this ridiculousness. Different style of classes of course.

The real question is, do we balance for what a very small size of the population is willing to do, or towards what most of the population does?

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Ramasee
Posts: 457

Re: [General] Morale Damage

Post#69 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:12 pm

Tesq wrote: Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:52 pm As glorian said lets test this out

If ppl are so sure that the alredy 20 sec for m2 now is fine lets wait when bw gona charge m2 with 10 sec from range with rain of fire then just wait for anything to came into range and drop.....

@note to ramasee Power genertion is easier to balance when you know for sure that morales NOT gona be a too strong addition otherwise the baindaid was till now use a low rate ; the stronger morales are the harder will be balance morale gain rate.
Easier? Oh yeah, absolutely! Better for long-term balance? No.

Changing generation rates will certainly cause imbalances with our current set of morales. Because the selection of morales themselves currently are not balanced regardless of generation rates.

In order to fix this problem, we as a community are going to have to deal with a window of suck. Once generation rates are assigned then ALL morales can be balanced to generation rates.

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Nameless
Posts: 1257

Re: [General] Morale Damage

Post#70 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:49 pm

Beside all wb talk I as a healer would be glad to reach focused mind faster than before. That by itself will upgrade healers survivability quite a bit. Which at my eyes is a good thing
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