working as intended

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Stophy22
Posts: 444

Re: working as intended

Post#81 » Wed May 08, 2019 11:36 am

I fear the high elves of order the most when I venture into the lakes. Among them shadow warrior and white lion are the ones that instill the coldest of chills down my spine.


I don’t have any “quik mafs” but I got tons of playtime and experience. Here are some tips.

Maybe instead of raging you looked into why your damage was so low and try different builds, tactical setups, or maybe even an ally or 5? I understand you want to be the elven archer like everyone else who plays that class but switch it up and go crash course something new, see how it handles. Add another Legolas and maybe a Gimli. Hell, a few Volgograds wouldn’t hurt.

As I’ve learned from much better players than myself; knowing the enemy helps infinitely more with killing them. If you can figure out their spec/tactics/gear it’ll help

If everyone played same spec and build you could just counter that with a certain build? Don’t assume one (in this case it’s) shaman is like every other shaman. Also that class is ridiculous and the people who play it have to be equally fanatical, don’t think you can just charge up one Festering Arrow and catch them off guard because they’ll be waiting for that.

And one last crazy idea, if the class is giving you that much of a headache to engage (this next part is crazy)
Spoiler:
simply don’t engage it. Accept the loss and move on without taking an actual death, and to engage something you can kill
I hope making this topic calmed you down enough to realize the possibility of operator error is present even if your mafs are “solid”.
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Sulorie
Posts: 7432

Re: working as intended

Post#82 » Wed May 08, 2019 1:54 pm

Smorg approves this thread.
Dying is no option.

jasonX
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Posts: 178

Re: working as intended

Post#83 » Thu May 09, 2019 1:42 pm

ahzzag wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 11:03 pm
jasonX wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 10:20 pm
ahzzag wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 6:53 pm So you are not debating or referring about pro's of an mobile and stance-dancing high armored defence (a)sw?
but arguing about your are not able to onehit/burstdown an deff-skilled-geared healer while on range and benefit all mentioned above?
You cant be serious
I couldnt care less for (a)sw. They can nerf it as much as they wish if they make the other specs viable. It might be like less than 5% of SWs that roll a SW to play assault.

So you are telling me that what you got from my posts is that I am asking for that 350 dmg per 1s cast hit to be turned to a 7,000 dmg per 1s cast hit? Cuz thats what it takes to 1hit that shaman. How the heck did you get that conclusion from my posts?
I think you are having problems with your perception over reality or you are just a usual troll.
To sum up what ive got from you posts is that you complain about an skill with 1s cast time, that could be cast on the move without an cooldown while you are kiting, is doing only 350 dmg. To be honest maybe you should check out other rdps and compare them to each other to recognize that there are a lot more restrictions on them in order to do more dmg (eng, bw, sorc) most of them got longer casttime, you cant move while casting and got to build up class mechanics to be powerful.
I cant get the point that you want to do more dmg on skills without any restictions?
correct me if i am wrong but skirmish ment to be low base-dmg, doting and kiting... skirmish not ment to be nuking, even more on healers.
again you cant be serious with you post, if you realy expect to burst ppl with skirmish on your sw. probably this would even work on ppl that are not def skill and geared. another note. maybe its not all about math and formulas. maybe its simply not ment to get ppl dwon by spamming SFA. so please stop complaining about, cause there is no problem.
You do understand that the goal in this game is to kill the opponent not just kite them for eternnity (which is not the issue here since kiting for eternity is not possible, u usually get killed when trying to kite forever and your damage is not enough to even put up some decent pressure.

Regarding the other "poor" rdps classes you are refering to you are dead wring and possibly never played a bw or an engi. Their dots are instant and some of those spamable. Since their dots are not physical damage they tend to tick for quite higher dps outputs than SFA. Moreover bws can actually cast on the move with a tactic and engis got much higher range than a sw. They have damage on the move allright and that damage is much higher than the jokeofadamage SWs deal.
I just think that you enjoy killing SWs and considering the fact that they might become viable and not so easily farmable one day saddens you.
Gitbane 81RR Choppa, proud guild master of Wispers of Mutiny
Gitbaner 77RR Chosen, tankier version of Gitbane
Gitbaneous 80RR sorc, heavy and tanky bomber mode.
Ethilia 84RR SW (too much nerf, RIP :()
Gitbaneus 81rr BW
Gitbone 77rr Slayer

jasonX
Suspended
Posts: 178

Re: working as intended

Post#84 » Thu May 09, 2019 1:47 pm

Stophy22 wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 11:36 am I fear the high elves of order the most when I venture into the lakes. Among them shadow warrior and white lion are the ones that instill the coldest of chills down my spine.


I don’t have any “quik mafs” but I got tons of playtime and experience. Here are some tips.

Maybe instead of raging you looked into why your damage was so low and try different builds, tactical setups, or maybe even an ally or 5? I understand you want to be the elven archer like everyone else who plays that class but switch it up and go crash course something new, see how it handles. Add another Legolas and maybe a Gimli. Hell, a few Volgograds wouldn’t hurt.

As I’ve learned from much better players than myself; knowing the enemy helps infinitely more with killing them. If you can figure out their spec/tactics/gear it’ll help

If everyone played same spec and build you could just counter that with a certain build? Don’t assume one (in this case it’s) shaman is like every other shaman. Also that class is ridiculous and the people who play it have to be equally fanatical, don’t think you can just charge up one Festering Arrow and catch them off guard because they’ll be waiting for that.

And one last crazy idea, if the class is giving you that much of a headache to engage (this next part is crazy)
Spoiler:
simply don’t engage it. Accept the loss and move on without taking an actual death, and to engage something you can kill
I hope making this topic calmed you down enough to realize the possibility of operator error is present even if your mafs are “solid”.
I didnt focus on the specific class. Simply anyone stacking armor pots and tallismans can render a SW useless. I did post some data over my dps vs a magus as well. The only answer against armor stacking is weaponskill stacking. Saddly i am following this spec and the numbers you saw were the result.... There is no other spec thst counters armor stacking. There used to be a scout spec that countered armor stacking but the devs nerfed it to the ground since some months ago.
Your sollution to my problem is to avoid fighting anyone that has stacked armor or has already medium armor and drunk an armor pot... You do see the peoblem with your suggestion here...
Gitbane 81RR Choppa, proud guild master of Wispers of Mutiny
Gitbaner 77RR Chosen, tankier version of Gitbane
Gitbaneous 80RR sorc, heavy and tanky bomber mode.
Ethilia 84RR SW (too much nerf, RIP :()
Gitbaneus 81rr BW
Gitbone 77rr Slayer

jasonX
Suspended
Posts: 178

Re: working as intended

Post#85 » Thu May 09, 2019 2:25 pm

wargrimnir wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 3:51 am Ignore me if you disagree, I'm putting no real weight behind this thought. Probably won't bother to respond to anything from it.

Skirmish feels like it wants to be a mid-range aoe spec. It's got the big stupid arrow and the split arrow tactic already, as well as the unloved barrage frontal cone. Not to mention the M4, which will be likely be buffed with other morale adjustments in the future.

Squigs have similar tools, but more pet dependence, so it would need different treatment for their mid range spec. Particularly since their melee spec is already AOE focused.

- Remove the damage reduction from Split Arrows tactic, change max targets to 1+2 in 20', and include Broadhead Arrow as being affected.

- Have Broadhead Arrow stack up to three times on a target, now it has potential as an AOE dot as well as being similar to other stacking dots that are just as lackluster with a single stack.

- Move Takedown from skirmish 9pt to scout 9pt and update it's range to match scout abilities, shift scout abilities down and Glass Arrow to Core scout.

- Move Flame Arrow to skirmish 9pt and reduce it's range to 65' to match other skirmish ranges, it would benefit from points in the tree for another potent aoe dot that scales with investment in the tree.

Now you have a mid range spec with more sources of AOE which is lacking in the class. Once they apply pressure, a heal debuff and their finisher could seal the deal. They lose the KD as the only real drawback, but at the same time Scout would gain it and that tree isn't a whole lot better off anyway.
Hmm that is actually a very good proposal in total creating a serious aoe perspective for SWs and adding some viability to ST scout.

Still I would suggest some smal tweaks.

-split arrow should be reworked as you suggested but the number of targets affected should not be reduced to 3. It should remain as it is (6 i think).
Reason: The damage mitigated by armor and the low tooltip damage of sfa does not make it a killer skill rather than a damage pressure adding skill. +30% dmg coming on split arrow use wont cover for the reduction of the targets affected.

-boost SW armor penetration but put that at a big cost. Change the 7 pieces invader bonus to the same as the slayer's bypassing 20%armor. That way stacking wounds with 4 invader 3 vanquisher wouldnt be possible but the damage would increase, reducing survivabilty but boosting damage as a tradeoff.

-Increase the rate of acid arrow bonus armor reduction coming from investing points in scout tree to reach a high value of - 1800 armor reduction when going full scout tree. This would strengthen the scout tree and wouldnt give a strong armor debuff to the other 2 specs. Keep the basic value of acid arrow as it is. Just increase the bonus armor reduction for every point taken in the scout tree.


Still, another crazy idea would be to remove armor talismans totally. Armor values are supposed to be adjusted to the classes' archetypes and armor tallies greatly disturb this balance.
Gitbane 81RR Choppa, proud guild master of Wispers of Mutiny
Gitbaner 77RR Chosen, tankier version of Gitbane
Gitbaneous 80RR sorc, heavy and tanky bomber mode.
Ethilia 84RR SW (too much nerf, RIP :()
Gitbaneus 81rr BW
Gitbone 77rr Slayer

Mausini
Posts: 78

Re: working as intended

Post#86 » Thu May 09, 2019 5:20 pm

I think the whole discussion doesn't pin the main problem with SW as a class.

The main question from my point of perspective is: "What it the purpose of the class". Or in other words: "Why would you take a SW instead of any other class in your party or WB?".

Almost every class has something it is particularly good at. SW does not (anymore).

The ranged single target damage is comparably low because of all the reasons mentioned here.
The ranged AOE damage is comparably low because of all the reasons mentioned here.
Melee damage is good but a lot of tools are missing to play SW as a "true" melee class.
To be honest: In comparison to e.g. Engi, the SW does not bring more utility in a group.
And on a side note: SW has the absolute worst synergies in skill trees of all classes I know.

The idea of a very flexible fighter that can react to different threats and endeavours is not working for a while now. In the contrary, the flexibility of SW as a "mixed" ranged/melee class leads to SW being underwhelming in ranged and somehow in melee too.

SW was good in (and he really was) as a supportive fighter that gave good buffs to the team (15% crit) and debuffed well too while having hight burst even vs high armored enemies but with very short burst window and only once a minute due to M2.
But that was considered to op (maybe it wasn't).

So again the question. What is the purpose of SW? Pure damage? Cool but then he needs to do damage, a lot of it. BW and Engi level.
I would go for the utility role because that would make SW unique again but thats just me.

User avatar
ahzzag
Posts: 23

Re: working as intended

Post#87 » Thu May 09, 2019 7:18 pm

jasonX wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 1:42 pm
ahzzag wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 11:03 pm
jasonX wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 10:20 pm

I couldnt care less for (a)sw. They can nerf it as much as they wish if they make the other specs viable. It might be like less than 5% of SWs that roll a SW to play assault.

So you are telling me that what you got from my posts is that I am asking for that 350 dmg per 1s cast hit to be turned to a 7,000 dmg per 1s cast hit? Cuz thats what it takes to 1hit that shaman. How the heck did you get that conclusion from my posts?
I think you are having problems with your perception over reality or you are just a usual troll.
To sum up what ive got from you posts is that you complain about an skill with 1s cast time, that could be cast on the move without an cooldown while you are kiting, is doing only 350 dmg. To be honest maybe you should check out other rdps and compare them to each other to recognize that there are a lot more restrictions on them in order to do more dmg (eng, bw, sorc) most of them got longer casttime, you cant move while casting and got to build up class mechanics to be powerful.
I cant get the point that you want to do more dmg on skills without any restictions?
correct me if i am wrong but skirmish ment to be low base-dmg, doting and kiting... skirmish not ment to be nuking, even more on healers.
again you cant be serious with you post, if you realy expect to burst ppl with skirmish on your sw. probably this would even work on ppl that are not def skill and geared. another note. maybe its not all about math and formulas. maybe its simply not ment to get ppl dwon by spamming SFA. so please stop complaining about, cause there is no problem.
You do understand that the goal in this game is to kill the opponent not just kite them for eternnity (which is not the issue here since kiting for eternity is not possible, u usually get killed when trying to kite forever and your damage is not enough to even put up some decent pressure.

Regarding the other "poor" rdps classes you are refering to you are dead wring and possibly never played a bw or an engi. Their dots are instant and some of those spamable. Since their dots are not physical damage they tend to tick for quite higher dps outputs than SFA. Moreover bws can actually cast on the move with a tactic and engis got much higher range than a sw. They have damage on the move allright and that damage is much higher than the jokeofadamage SWs deal.
I just think that you enjoy killing SWs and considering the fact that they might become viable and not so easily farmable one day saddens you.
not getting the point people complaining about SW when compare the class with BW or Engi. you want the same dmg? maybe just think about the disadvantage BW got at his full potential... there is a reason why dots tick harder and are not physical. its called combustion/explosion mechanic. hitting you for 750 dmg if you are unlucky every single cast. an Engi got to build up upgrade stacks depending on your turrent being staionary on rifle. dots on gren are not killing any traget eighter. so why an SW should be able to get all the cookies?
i do understand that you as SWplayer would like to see you class buffed again to an "eierlegende Wollmilchsau" as we call this in GER. still cant see any reason to do this while not suffering any disadvatage in order to receive an buff.
as a sidenote for your information. i'm quite familiar with Engi, BW and SW as well. in addition i have no preferences on killing (order)players in sc/rvr as you mentioned on you restricted point of view . there are although enough dwarf and human races, mostly depends on playerskill...
my last 2 cents on this based on your limited sight

jasonX
Suspended
Posts: 178

Re: working as intended

Post#88 » Fri May 10, 2019 7:57 am

ahzzag wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 7:18 pm
jasonX wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 1:42 pm
ahzzag wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 11:03 pm

To sum up what ive got from you posts is that you complain about an skill with 1s cast time, that could be cast on the move without an cooldown while you are kiting, is doing only 350 dmg. To be honest maybe you should check out other rdps and compare them to each other to recognize that there are a lot more restrictions on them in order to do more dmg (eng, bw, sorc) most of them got longer casttime, you cant move while casting and got to build up class mechanics to be powerful.
I cant get the point that you want to do more dmg on skills without any restictions?
correct me if i am wrong but skirmish ment to be low base-dmg, doting and kiting... skirmish not ment to be nuking, even more on healers.
again you cant be serious with you post, if you realy expect to burst ppl with skirmish on your sw. probably this would even work on ppl that are not def skill and geared. another note. maybe its not all about math and formulas. maybe its simply not ment to get ppl dwon by spamming SFA. so please stop complaining about, cause there is no problem.
You do understand that the goal in this game is to kill the opponent not just kite them for eternnity (which is not the issue here since kiting for eternity is not possible, u usually get killed when trying to kite forever and your damage is not enough to even put up some decent pressure.

Regarding the other "poor" rdps classes you are refering to you are dead wring and possibly never played a bw or an engi. Their dots are instant and some of those spamable. Since their dots are not physical damage they tend to tick for quite higher dps outputs than SFA. Moreover bws can actually cast on the move with a tactic and engis got much higher range than a sw. They have damage on the move allright and that damage is much higher than the jokeofadamage SWs deal.
I just think that you enjoy killing SWs and considering the fact that they might become viable and not so easily farmable one day saddens you.
not getting the point people complaining about SW when compare the class with BW or Engi. you want the same dmg? maybe just think about the disadvantage BW got at his full potential... there is a reason why dots tick harder and are not physical. its called combustion/explosion mechanic. hitting you for 750 dmg if you are unlucky every single cast. an Engi got to build up upgrade stacks depending on your turrent being staionary on rifle. dots on gren are not killing any traget eighter. so why an SW should be able to get all the cookies?
i do understand that you as SWplayer would like to see you class buffed again to an "eierlegende Wollmilchsau" as we call this in GER. still cant see any reason to do this while not suffering any disadvatage in order to receive an buff.
as a sidenote for your information. i'm quite familiar with Engi, BW and SW as well. in addition i have no preferences on killing (order)players in sc/rvr as you mentioned on you restricted point of view . there are although enough dwarf and human races, mostly depends on playerskill...
my last 2 cents on this based on your limited sight

What Mausini said above covers my point. (btw thr critial boost is 8% not 15% Mausini). Threat meters in pve and class preferences in warbands and parties speak for themselves. SWs are a mediocre class with no purpose. Low damage ST, low dmg AOE and a glitchy mobility mechsnism.

Now if you are afraid that SWs are going to start taking your position in warbands and not get ditched outside as they are now, then thats your problem.
Gitbane 81RR Choppa, proud guild master of Wispers of Mutiny
Gitbaner 77RR Chosen, tankier version of Gitbane
Gitbaneous 80RR sorc, heavy and tanky bomber mode.
Ethilia 84RR SW (too much nerf, RIP :()
Gitbaneus 81rr BW
Gitbone 77rr Slayer

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Manatikik
Posts: 1249

Re: working as intended

Post#89 » Fri May 10, 2019 8:11 am

SW really doesn't need any buffs outside of maybe AoE for WB. But SW is just fine for Forts. So, yea. Pretty good class.
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Mausini
Posts: 78

Re: working as intended

Post#90 » Fri May 10, 2019 10:11 am

jasonX wrote: Fri May 10, 2019 7:57 am What Mausini said above covers my point. (btw thr critial boost is 8% not 15% Mausini).
It was 15% before the nerf and one of the main reasons you wanted to have a SW in your team. (Together with SW's ability to take down key targets)

Source:
https://wiki.returnofreckoning.com/inde ... ss_Changes
Leading Shots tactic critical hit rate reduced from 15% to 8%

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