working as intended

Let's talk about... everything else
User avatar
peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: working as intended

Post#91 » Fri May 10, 2019 10:20 am

Melee SW is far from bad, and functions very much as a MDPS (bar the 'ranged' DoT & HD).

Ask Fenryl, Bejkon, Ripliel, Lefze, Zeromancer - and a few others - for tips.
Image

Ads
Zxul
Posts: 1672

Re: working as intended

Post#92 » Fri May 10, 2019 10:25 am

To add my input to this discussion.

On my chosen, the class that manages to hit me the hardest is melee SW. Not bw, not engi, not wh/slayer.

So as far as "Melee damage is good but a lot of tools are missing to play SW as a "true" melee class.", being hardest hitting melee class atime on order side while also having a decent ranged options- without changing spec- does brings a question what exactly do some sw believe is missing from the class.
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

User avatar
ahzzag
Posts: 23

Re: working as intended

Post#93 » Fri May 10, 2019 10:28 am

Manatikik wrote: Fri May 10, 2019 8:11 am SW really doesn't need any buffs outside of maybe AoE for WB. But SW is just fine for Forts. So, yea. Pretty good class.
totally agree on this.

@ JaysonX: i am not afraid on any warband- preferences and space.
just wanted to point out that SW not needs to get buffed in solokilling st burst dmg against some classes, whats you open post was.
some classes shine in WBs, some shine in SCs/smale scale and some shine in solo/1v1. thats simply the game as it is and will be. maybe you just should pick the class your preferred playstyle fits best.
Last edited by ahzzag on Fri May 10, 2019 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Nekkma
Posts: 735

Re: working as intended

Post#94 » Fri May 10, 2019 10:31 am

Zxul wrote: Fri May 10, 2019 10:25 am To add my input to this discussion.

On my chosen, the class that manages to hit me the hardest is melee SW. Not bw, not engi, not wh/slayer.

So as far as "Melee damage is good but a lot of tools are missing to play SW as a "true" melee class.", being hardest hitting melee class atime on order side while also having a decent ranged options- without changing spec- does brings a question what exactly do some sw believe is missing from the class.
Well, I would think that those that picked the class to play it as rdps, not mdps, feels that especially damage is missing. Dps AMs feels like more of a threat than a SW in most cases for instance.
Nekkma / Hjortron
Zatakk
Smultron

User avatar
saupreusse
Former Staff
Posts: 2386

Re: working as intended

Post#95 » Fri May 10, 2019 10:54 am

The thing you all forget is that at the moment Melee SW is pretty strong but you are left with lower then mediocre ranged preassure. For AOE dps you could always take a bw in your warband and have a lot more preassure than using SW. In single target matters ranged spec SW are outshined by every other rdps (except squigger). Ive been there and tried it. You cant put up a 6v6 fight with a equally equipped decent 6 man if youre playing a full ranged SW. It simply isnt possible to apply the preassure you would need even with a spammable heal debuff. This is not a problem in lower ranks but becomes much more obvious the higher sets progress because physical rdps (SW and squig) suffer a lot from high armor values (as you can see in OPs post). once a target has around 60 to 70% mitigation you will hit like a wet noodle (even if the target is unguarded). I always felt 100% useless against premades even if we managed to hold against them. dmg numbers below 200 are not an exception for SFA, Id say its rather common playing in an armor stacking meta. Ofc you can do well on SW getting some pew pew kills here and there or farming in a warband with lileaths arrow. but in the end the class in its ranged spec is lacking some real spice to help them being any useful against some well equipped foes. a WL armor debuff is mandatory to even try sw, but even then you wont be having the impact of a bw/engi or any of the melee classes in terms of dmg output which leaves you being not the kind of threat you should be as a dps class.
Image

Mausini
Posts: 78

Re: working as intended

Post#96 » Fri May 10, 2019 10:56 am

Zxul wrote: Fri May 10, 2019 10:25 am To add my input to this discussion.

On my chosen, the class that manages to hit me the hardest is melee SW. Not bw, not engi, not wh/slayer.

So as far as "Melee damage is good but a lot of tools are missing to play SW as a "true" melee class.", being hardest hitting melee class atime on order side while also having a decent ranged options- without changing spec- does brings a question what exactly do some sw believe is missing from the class.
For ASW:
    Melee Snare is missing
      AOE Detaunt without slotting a tactic
        Str tactic that doesn't debuff your Tough to absurd low levels
          Root breaker
            Melee AOE skills (Your skirmish AOE damage as ASW is extremely crappy)
              Gap Closer that doesn't automatically locks you out from any other good skill/build option if skilled
                Very high RR, gold and gear requirement to make it work compared to other melee classes

                You can somehow play around that disadvantages but you still need to put a lot of effort into it and at some points you will never get even decent results (like aoe damage as ASW)

                On the other hand you get a lot of nice stuff like ranged attacks for not feeling absolutely useless in keep fights and so on. Good tankyness vs physical damage classes.
                Anyway. If you compare melee SW's tools with SH you might get a clue what I do mean with "full working melee class".

                But to be honest. The whole discussion was about the ranged aspect of SW, not the melee one. Melee is cool and compared to ranged over buffed in the damage department. Should ranged SW not be viable because melee is? Probably not, right?

                Mausini
                Posts: 78

                Re: working as intended

                Post#97 » Fri May 10, 2019 11:16 am

                saupreusse wrote: Fri May 10, 2019 10:54 am The thing you all forget is that at the moment Melee SW is pretty strong but you are left with lower then mediocre ranged preassure. For AOE dps you could always take a bw in your warband and have a lot more preassure than using SW. In single target matters ranged spec SW are outshined by every other rdps (except squigger). Ive been there and tried it. You cant put up a 6v6 fight with a equally equipped decent 6 man if youre playing a full ranged SW. It simply isnt possible to apply the preassure you would need even with a spammable heal debuff. This is not a problem in lower ranks but becomes much more obvious the higher sets progress because physical rdps (SW and squig) suffer a lot from high armor values (as you can see in OPs post). once a target has around 60 to 70% mitigation you will hit like a wet noodle (even if the target is unguarded). I always felt 100% useless against premades even if we managed to hold against them. dmg numbers below 200 are not an exception for SFA, Id say its rather common playing in an armor stacking meta. Ofc you can do well on SW getting some pew pew kills here and there or farming in a warband with lileaths arrow. but in the end the class in its ranged spec is lacking some real spice to help them being any useful against some well equipped foes. a WL armor debuff is mandatory to even try sw, but even then you wont be having the impact of a bw/engi or any of the melee classes in terms of dmg output which leaves you being not the kind of threat you should be as a dps class.
                On a sidenote:
                Single target engi got a skill with temp 25% armor penetration because of all the high armor values flying around while having access to a lot of elemental damage attacks and two very solid other skill trees. No clue why SW (and also SH) should not be looked at, regarding this issue. Feels a little like double standard to me.

                User avatar
                peterthepan3
                Posts: 6509

                Re: working as intended

                Post#98 » Fri May 10, 2019 11:26 am

                Mausini wrote: Fri May 10, 2019 11:16 am
                saupreusse wrote: Fri May 10, 2019 10:54 am The thing you all forget is that at the moment Melee SW is pretty strong but you are left with lower then mediocre ranged preassure. For AOE dps you could always take a bw in your warband and have a lot more preassure than using SW. In single target matters ranged spec SW are outshined by every other rdps (except squigger). Ive been there and tried it. You cant put up a 6v6 fight with a equally equipped decent 6 man if youre playing a full ranged SW. It simply isnt possible to apply the preassure you would need even with a spammable heal debuff. This is not a problem in lower ranks but becomes much more obvious the higher sets progress because physical rdps (SW and squig) suffer a lot from high armor values (as you can see in OPs post). once a target has around 60 to 70% mitigation you will hit like a wet noodle (even if the target is unguarded). I always felt 100% useless against premades even if we managed to hold against them. dmg numbers below 200 are not an exception for SFA, Id say its rather common playing in an armor stacking meta. Ofc you can do well on SW getting some pew pew kills here and there or farming in a warband with lileaths arrow. but in the end the class in its ranged spec is lacking some real spice to help them being any useful against some well equipped foes. a WL armor debuff is mandatory to even try sw, but even then you wont be having the impact of a bw/engi or any of the melee classes in terms of dmg output which leaves you being not the kind of threat you should be as a dps class.
                On a sidenote:
                Single target engi got a skill with temp 25% armor penetration because of all the high armor values flying around while having access to a lot of elemental damage attacks and two very solid other skill trees. No clue why SW (and also SH) should not be looked at, regarding this issue. Feels a little like double standard to me.
                Rifleman is a stationary spec, which had a lacklustre 13-pter in its physical DPS path, whereas Skirmish/QS are much, much more mobile specs, bring decent CC on the move (RKD), spammable Heal Debuffs, good sustained ST, etc.

                Not to say that it isn't a good idea, as I do believe Skirm/QS need something, but you can't really compare a stationary longcaster with a mobile RDPS that brings an assortment of debuffs (including snares and HDs), and expect them to function the same way/receive the same treatment when they operate very differently.
                Image

                Ads
                Mausini
                Posts: 78

                Re: working as intended

                Post#99 » Fri May 10, 2019 11:31 am

                peterthepan3 wrote: Fri May 10, 2019 11:26 am
                Mausini wrote: Fri May 10, 2019 11:16 am Single target engi got a skill with temp 25% armor penetration because of all the high armor values flying around while having access to a lot of elemental damage attacks and two very solid other skill trees. No clue why SW (and also SH) should not be looked at, regarding this issue. Feels a little like double standard to me.
                Rifleman is a stationary spec, which had a lacklustre 13-pter in its Physical DPS career. Skirmish/QS are much, much more mobile specs, bring decent CC on the move (RKD), spammable Heal Debuffs, etc.

                Not to say that it isn't a good idea, but you can't really compare a stationary longcaster with a mobile RDPS with an assortment of debuffs, including snares and HDs, expecting them to deliver the same ST burst.
                As Scout SW you are as stationary as a Engi... I tried it out. In the contrary. Engi has hard hitting dots running and pressuring the target during repositioning while Scout single target damage drops like a stone as soon as you need to move one inch.

                Zxul
                Posts: 1672

                Re: working as intended

                Post#100 » Fri May 10, 2019 11:36 am

                Mausini wrote: Fri May 10, 2019 10:56 am
                Zxul wrote: Fri May 10, 2019 10:25 am To add my input to this discussion.

                On my chosen, the class that manages to hit me the hardest is melee SW. Not bw, not engi, not wh/slayer.

                So as far as "Melee damage is good but a lot of tools are missing to play SW as a "true" melee class.", being hardest hitting melee class atime on order side while also having a decent ranged options- without changing spec- does brings a question what exactly do some sw believe is missing from the class.
                For ASW:
                  Melee Snare is missing
                    AOE Detaunt without slotting a tactic
                      Str tactic that doesn't debuff your Tough to absurd low levels
                        Root breaker
                          Melee AOE skills (Your skirmish AOE damage as ASW is extremely crappy)
                            Gap Closer that doesn't automatically locks you out from any other good skill/build option if skilled
                              Very high RR, gold and gear requirement to make it work compared to other melee classes

                              You can somehow play around that disadvantages but you still need to put a lot of effort into it and at some points you will never get even decent results (like aoe damage as ASW)

                              On the other hand you get a lot of nice stuff like ranged attacks for not feeling absolutely useless in keep fights and so on. Good tankyness vs physical damage classes.
                              Anyway. If you compare melee SW's tools with SH you might get a clue what I do mean with "full working melee class".

                              But to be honest. The whole discussion was about the ranged aspect of SW, not the melee one. Melee is cool and compared to ranged over buffed in the damage department. Should ranged SW not be viable because melee is? Probably not, right?
                              The point is- you can't have both highest melee dmg on order + decent ranged dmg in same spec, and the mdps tools which you listed/ more ranged dmg- if you want buffs if those areas, sw melee dmg will have to be adjusted accordingly.
                              "Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

                              — Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

                              Who is online

                              Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], DerKlotz and 10 guests