2 queries about marauder

[Coryphaus]

couldnt agree more

[daed4]

It balances out with the fact the rest of chaos classes are from "balanced" to "worse than order" :^)

And this annoys me to no end, that people use mara to justify imbalance; some time ago me and tesq were arguing against range KD’s and some other imbalances that ordo have and the counter response every was “well mara can do this, mara can do that”

The problem is (here is where NOBODY will read this) is saying what do we want as balance.
There is 2 ways of balancing a game, the easy and the hard one. The easy one is symmetrical balance, example, chess, both sides are the same, kill each other. The hard one is asymmetrical, while this makes the game the MOST fun can also make it hell.

However, the problem comes from a single question and is this:

What is the powerlevel?

What does this mean? This means "What is the actual balanced class", let's say it's choosen.
Why is choosen balanced. What are his strengths, what are his weaknesses, why they're balanced.
Then take the logic of why this makes a class balanced and apply it to balance the rest while still being unique.
It's okay for classes to be pretty strong (Marauder, WH) it's not okay for classes to be straightly worse than another (Choppa-slayer).

So first we have to say which standard is balanced and bring the classes bellow that standard up, then the classes that are VERY broken (I'm talking actually broken here, for example WotLK starting DKs where very broken, humans in WoW are broken PvP wise, as in they where just the best class, i'm talking like Zet was in the dota TI3 meta where he could splitpush from safety thanks to storm clone. I'm talking about classes that are a big and very simple "I win". Marauder is not a big "I win" button.).

The other problem with asymmetrical design is the need to be non-biased, as one of the most general complains I saw about WAR (no-patch notwithstanding) was the imbalance of order-chaos power.

[Bozzax]

It is somewhat alien to me to say "balance is hard lets therefore have imbalance".

In reality much of the whine is about the abilities that are better then similar debuffs/buffs. Max debuff/buff of a character shouldn't be determined by what classes are present as max buff/debuff are core values just like damage formulas or stats soft cap. Normalising debuffs/buffs makes sense where current stacking only counts the strongest buff. Fixing debuff/buff group imbalances also helps realm balance especially when some classes may be under or over played.

Ol'lady WAR SpArKles as it has non mirrors. Combined with gear options, renown abilities, training and group synergies it is mindblowingly complex. Yes some classes will therefore be better in some contexts and I think we should accept that.

[daed4]

Ol'lady WAR SpArKles as it has non mirrors. Combined with gear options, renown abilities, training and group synergies it is mindblowingly complex. Yes some classes will therefore be better in some contexts and I think we should accept that.
.

The problem is when classes are STRICTLY worse.

[Bozzax]

That is why tuning down Maras for example is an easier way then buffing all the other classes. Just normalising the debuffs / buffs and reducing armour debuff to 990 would be a great start. Also change Slasha to 120 debuff on first hit

Now test it and discard if it doesn't work out.

Order side would be normalising debuffs/buffs and fix WL pet. I'm guessing we will end up with Slayer being a bit over the top and if that is right tamper with it after the other things has been tested

[Bozzax]

These are the changes I’d like to se myself instead of nit picking classes

• Stacked debuffs x3 are made to single pop x1 debuffs
  
  Buffs/debuffs are made to stack up to the current ALPHA cap
  Example: 2xChosen/KOTBs auraas stack and therfore debuff 378 resistance
  
  AOE passives should debuff 50% of the current ALPHA cap
  
  Normalize maximums of debuffs/buffs (se below)

Normalize debuff/buff maximums

• Abilities 120
  Single stat Tactics (also tactic/ability) 160
  Multi stat tactics 120
  Morales 120/160/200/240

Excepetions

• Initiative caps -40
  Wounds caps +40
  Willpower +120

Affecting abilities

• WH Exit wounds 240/240/240 > 120/120/120
  
  MARA Ferocious Assault 200/200 > 120/120
  MARA Thunderous Blow 160 > 120
  
  SHAM Do Sumfin Useful 240 > 120
  
  KOTBs Runefang 240/240/240 > 160/160/160
  KOTBs Emperor's Champion 240/240/240 > 160/160/160
  
  BG Brutal smash 480 > 240
  BG Mind killer 3x40 > 1x120
  
  IB Inspiring Attack 480 > 240
  
  CHOP Slasha 3x40 > 1x120
  
  SLAYER Devastate 160 > 120
  SLAYER Pulverizing Strike 3x40 > 1x120
  
  BW Fuel the fire 360 > 280
  
  SORC Vision of Domination 360 > 280
  
  RP Protection of the Ancestors 160 > 120
  
  ZEAL Daemonic Fortitude 160 > 120

Lastly consider

• Change Mara/WL armor debuff 990 wouldn't hurt either as they have bypass as well.
  Reduce CHOSEN Sprout Carapace to 20s
  Reduce ENGI Cannon Smash to 1056/15s
  Reduce MAGUS Tzeentch's Talon 990/15s

Most of the **** we are whining about comes from current un-normalized debuts/buffs

[Azarael]

So first we have to say which standard is balanced and bring the classes bellow that standard up, then the classes that are VERY broken (I'm talking actually broken here, for example WotLK starting DKs where very broken, humans in WoW are broken PvP wise, as in they where just the best class, i'm talking like Zet was in the dota TI3 meta where he could splitpush from safety thanks to storm clone. I'm talking about classes that are a big and very simple "I win". Marauder is not a big "I win" button.)

As in most things, it's a question of degree. The correct approach is, as you say, to shave the tops and bottoms off the peaks and troughs of the graph of imbalance, by addressing the most potent and underwhelming aspects of the game first. Then, classes which are "pretty strong" (a code phrase for "overpowered, but overshadowed by even more broken classes") will start to come to the fore as game-deciders and take the mantle of OP.

I've seen it happen in my own balance endeavours. The players' attitudes gradually changed to where they'd react to slight imbalances every bit as seriously as they had once done to serious, game-destroying flaws.

Ol'lady WAR SpArKles as it has non mirrors. Combined with gear options, renown abilities, training and group synergies it is mindblowingly complex. Yes some classes will therefore be better in some contexts and I think we should accept that.

This is one of the greatest ironies.

Proponents of such extensive levels of customisation will point to the sheer number of potential combinations as an example of a positive aspect brought to the game. Unfortunately, all these factors make balancing nearly impossible and thus, ironically, the exact opposite effect to the intended one occurs. Certain combinations (or even worse, A certain combination) see use and the overwhelming majority are consigned to uselessness, because there are just too many factors to balance.

Therein lies the danger of piling additional abilities, procs and stat modifications on top of a system which was clearly designed for a certain game state.

[Coryphaus]

Your right complete mirrors isn't possible because its boring and unfun and then the uniqueness and character of the classes disappear and in some cases like you stated nerfing mara some and buffing how WL’s scale is a good idea But the big power discrepancy between slayers and choppa’s I feel is something much less straight forward to fix because one wrong change could make the classes up having said that though as long as slayers have rampage and choppas have a garbage AoE tree (to name a few issues between the 2) they can never be balanced

[Morf]

Your right complete mirrors isn't possible because its boring and unfun and then the uniqueness and character of the classes disappear and in some cases like you stated nerfing mara some and buffing how WL’s scale is a good idea But the big power discrepancy between slayers and choppa’s I feel is something much less straight forward to fix because one wrong change could make the classes up having said that though as long as slayers have rampage and choppas have a garbage AoE tree (to name a few issues between the 2) they can never be balanced

There isnt much to fix with slayers and choppas, slayers have best aoe but is easily countered choppas have best single target damage. 1v1 choppa has more going for it, 6v6 i would think choppa has more chance to be the difference, zerg fights between pugs sure aoe spamming of id with rampage up would be the game breaker but if ppl understood how to negate it you would see less qq.
And for the record as much hate as git to the choppa received it was fun to see it crit for 1k+ and pull ppl thru objects.

Edit- as i remember...the thing that made id spam so effective is that it could proc all the extra damage buffs from wp,bw and slayer itself.

[Bozzax]

Think it was other way arround when it was tested Slayer had slightly* better ST (std Slayer spec) over 10s but Choppa could have a better timestamp with bleedem + AOE haste

* Was close though
Edit: 100 gear and solid rotations