Patch Notes 28/05/2021

[xoonerfree]

You're right.

• Changing action bar based on stance is a *conditional* -- ban Plan B

• Casting a skill based on selected target is a *conditional* -- ban Enemy (this one is actually closest to cheating)

Not to mention automatically saying something in chat when you use a skill -- ban think out loud...

The issue I have is that only *some* addons giving an *advantage* were banned, but not all. Either go all in or none at all...

Ban Shadow warriors, when they change their stance, they get a completely new ability set up on their action bar.
Very few people are arguing that a sequencer is the issue. a sequencer would allow you to have fewer buttons, trying to sequence everything onto 1 or 2 buttons would likely be a huge disadvantage. A sequencer also require you to think about the abilities you want to cast, rather than automating the process, which NB did. PlanB simply declutters the action bar and allows the opportunity to use fewer key binds, it does not automate any process. A good example is Shadow Warrior stance change... makes you wonder why Borcs and SM's never had the same type of mechanic built into the game in the first place really. As for enemy, I don't know the in's and out's of it to comment.
If you want to get greasy about automated chat on skill use, might as well start banning the **** out of comm's users, discord, etc.

But that's precisely my point --

Is it NB automation that's bad? There are other add-ons that also automate processes (TOL, enemy, swift assist). Then those should be banned also.
Is it NB conditionals that's bad? There are other add-ons that also rely on conditionals (Plan B, TOL, enemy, buffhead). Then those should be banned also.
Is it NB simplifies play that's bad? There are other add-ons that also simply play that should be banned.

The problem I have is that one add-on was singled out, while others are deemed "OK" for whatever reason. I just would like to see consistent application of the rationale (whatever it is).

As far as comms/discord/etc.
Personally, it does piss me off when I'm in a PUG that goes up against a premade and gets rolled because the premade is using comms/discord that make them more efficient at targeting and killing high-value targets. The argument "but those tools are also available to you and you should use them" is the same argument that people make for keeping NB. It's available to everyone and if you choose not to use it that's on you. I prefer not to play with discord because it ruins some of the immersive environment and experience for me. I accept that has a negative effect, but that's my choice and on me. Use of NB should be the same. One might even argue comms are worse because unlike NB, they're not even integrated into the game but a completely external program used to give certain groups an advantage...

voice communication does not actually interact with the game/API. You can't stop voice chat it's impossible. I support using NB in game but your argument is apples to oranges imo. get better arguments.

to be 100% honest I like NB because it makes the game more relaxing to play. I can focus on tactics, target selection and party members without over-prioritizing pressing abilities and juggling cooldowns, which is tedious gameplay imo. I play standard WADS/mouse setup.

[Drys]

OFC you can't realistically ban external comms. The point there was that comms are available to everyone to use. I choose not to use them -- that's my choice and I need to accept that it means sometimes it means that premades on comms roll the PUG I'm in. Same argument for leaving NB in the game. It's there for everyone -- if you choose not to use it and you think it gives a legit advantage, well that's on you.

[xoonerfree]

tl;dr:
NB sitation reflects community. Had positive experience with NB. Some arguments for NB. Some heated emotional outbursts. Nostalgia alone can't keep me anymore. Does NB even have a chance to come back?

Full text:
In my opinion the NB situation exactly reflects the attitude of the community I got. Want to be an inclusive community? Yeah right. The RoR community is everything but. People wont even look at you if you don't have RR70+. The majority isn't even willing to help new players out. The best that community can muster are tips as in how to “git gud” fast. This elitist attitude is NOT welcoming. At least there were SOME decent peeps that helped, but few and far between. Tried to carry the torch and help out myself once I got into a better position... but you know.

I played a long time without any Addons at all. Even with a class that is not reliant on many skills to work I just didn't use all. I didn't even bother to clutter my interface with them. It was then, when fate struck me in the form of NB and other Addons. I could finally utilize all skills I had to my disposal. Made one big conditioned sequencer... and fell flat. It DOES NOT work that way. Had to do multiple (some conditioned) sequences mostly with 1-3 Skills and filled my skill bars pretty good anyway. This was such a good improvement to my game experience. I REALLY had fun. Well as much as I could since community still sucks for newbies.

Someone already mentioned that sequencers (even conditioned) are already the norm in games. Yes, that is true: In Aion you could build your own sequences. They even checked for conditions and had forks:



Another example is Tera:
Ok, I can't find a screen that shows it well enough, but I actually played it and now that you could (depending on situation) play it with only one key.


For me NB is a simple QoL Addon. The people crying this is a cheater addon are HEAVILY exaggerating and are as far as I read (I am monitoring this thread since the beginning) misinformed. I am not white knighting for the disabled here, though I really like their argument. Still wouldn't be fair to use it just because it coincides with my side of the argument so disregard that. Actually I don't even think the “underground” use of NB is a problem, because it does not have the impact on the game the “cheater” faction claims. Please stay consistent here guys.
What really makes my blood boil is the smug attitude: If you cant play all the buttons buy a new +INSERT HARDWARE+ and use the makros aka learn to code. Or even better: Get a brain to click more than one button.
What the fuk is wrong with you?
As mentioned before you guys are elitist pricks and NOT AT ALL welcoming as you try to claim.

Yeah I do see parallels to the overall community with the way NB is being handled here. It seems a minority of elite players are dictating how to play the game for everyone. I play the game for fun. I like the PvE part because I really like the Warhammer lore and I did read all the quest texts and I actually wanted to finish and read ALL the quests.
It is the nostalgia that made me start to play again (played AoR). I really liked to feel being part of a horde storming a keep/fort. As if NB miraculously would have changed the outcome of the battle... But the game is old and the mechanics (buttonacrobatics) are tiresome. NB invigorated my desire to play again or rather keep playing. I had to take some time off for RL reasons and was about to come back to get hit like that. It really dampened my enthusiasm to play and was enough to make the only lurking me to write something in here. Right now I am at a crossroads: do I want to continue on nostalgia alone?

Doesn't look good right now and if I bury RoR, it will be for good. This is not and was not intended as an over dramatized good bye letter, though I am sure the “bye bye cheater” post is already in the works after the second paragraph... I hoped that player base would go down so the devs would reconsider. I admit I am a bit selfish in that regard, but as far as I see the numbers didn't go down (enough) to be relevant. Sadly I am not as eloquent as Wargrimnir was in his post,...

[...]

… but I absolutely agree.

My point in all of this: Would the Devs even consider to reinstate NB or is this a closed deal and the whole debate is moot? If it is already a closed matter I would like to know so I know whether to continue to monitor this thread (or RoR in general) or not.

Edit: I don't know why the image is so small in this post so here is a link to the source: https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/aion/ ... Window.png

Answer to your question: Population will determine what devs do. If population drops substantially and the game is at risk of pop death spiral, they'll bring it back. Population tells them everything. I've played other MMORPGs where populations tanked in 3 months and the game basically dies, you can't do much with small populations in MMORPGs. Let's face, many people see low populations and log out, which makes the problem worse. Players are claiming the slightly lower pops we're getting right now are due to 1) summer and 2) wow.

[sundey]

At the end of the day, what's the real argument against NB? The patch notes read "We have never really liked the idea of an addon automating conditional checks for players. Now it is blocked." Conditional checks is very vague and could extend to anything that automatically checks for a particular state and then automates an action. I'll give you that buffhead and swift assist don't meet that specific definition (no automatic action), but the other two certainly fit the bill:

TOL:
Checks if a skill was activated (conditional check) and then sends a chat message (automatically). Others leverage that message to take advantage of a buff/debuff. I mean, otherwise I would have to use the skill, THEN type something in chat -- meaning I'm not using other skills while typing in chat.

Enemy:
Click-casting lets you set healer, tank, or dps for different skills (conditional check) and then (automatically) casts a preselected skill when I click on a person's square in the UI. That's far closer to NB conditionals than sequencing. PLUS it removes an entire action -- instead of first selecting a target THEN pushing a skill button, I can do it in ONE action -- click AND cast.

Plan B:
Checks your current stance (conditional check) and then changes your hotbar depending on the stance (automatically). Granted other classes have skill bars change based on stance (WH/WE incognito, Mara/SW). But it still fits the definition as layed out in the patch notes. It gives SMs/BOs the advantage of streamlining their skill availability based on a conditional (same as NB).

EDIT:
Depending on how you read "automating conditional checks" one could still argue that buffhead does automate the conditional check part, but doesn't automate an action.

I think we agree that there could be more clarity in the reasoning; I guess I know (and maybe you do as well) that the basic reasoning has been the same for over a decade, so the arguments relying on semantics just ring hollow to me. For example, you say that "Conditional checks is very vague and could extend to anything that automatically checks for a particular state and then automates an action": I'm sure you recognise that this would be an absurdly broad interpretation (else I suppose all addons would now be blocked). Whether or not a clearer statement of reasoning from the devs would be helpful, anyone genuinely wanting to counter the fundamental position that NB-esque automation is undesirable would do better to argue against the strongest formulation of that position, rather than trying to make 'clever' semantic arguments.

With regard to your specific examples:

ToL: This is also basically what an in-game macro does, it's just being chained/sequenced with an ability. Your interpretations of "conditional check" and "automatically" would seem to apply to simple ability presses, and you failed to address the fact that the addon's automatic function is to emit a (pre-set) chat message, rather than, for example, decide what ability to use and execute that decision. Whether other players can leverage the message is irrelevant so I'm not sure why you mention that.

Enemy: I disagree. The unit frames are essentially acting as hotbar buttons with a built-in and, as you acknowledge, pre-selected, sequence. What would actually be closer to NB functionality is if you could click a group member and Enemy would decide whether to cast a HoT or a single-target heal based on target hp % (to give a simple example).

Plan B: Very broad interpretation of "conditional check" and "automatic" again. It's rotating hotbars in a linear way; it's not, for example, making a choice of which stance to move the player into based on some relevant pvp state.

Buffhead: You could interpret it in this way -- it's a valid literal interpretation of the rationale given in the OP -- but I think it's pretty obvious it's not really the intended meaning (partly because it seems it would apply to almost every addon), and I doubt that arguments relying on such interpretations will do much to change the mind of anyone who's in the against-NB camp. It seems clear to me that it's not just "conditional checks" or "automaticity" alone that some people consider an issue but rather the combination of these (and other things) in NB; trying to deconstruct it into abstract characteristics and then attacking these very general concepts just comes across as disingenuous. The comparison with MiracleGrow is one of the worst examples of this.

Edit: I wanted to soften this a bit by saying that I'm not saying that you are being disingenuous, but just that that's the impression I often get from this line of argument that relies on comparisons with other addons. I also think your post highlights that it probably would've been better for the devs to make their reasoning clearer; I can sympathise with the difficulty of laying out a perfect definition/'position statement', however.

[Drys]

I think clear reasoning would solve a lot of the discussion. And it can't be "we think NB is cheating." Specifically, what is it about NB that NO other addon does.

I'll concede TOL, Plan B, and Buffhead on that no specific skills are being activated automatically based on a condition. But enemy click-casting can do exactly that. The conditions aren't as advanced as NB but if you can cast a different spell based on whether you clicked a tank, dps, or healer -- that's essentially what NB does (enemy is just not as advanced)

[Omegus]

to my shame i m not good at programming and all such stuff like that, the only condition that I used in NB is a "virtual cooldown". in fact, that was enough for me. Well, an example of a sequence without any conditions at all: ability with a 10sec cooldown; ability with a 5 sec cooldown; ability without cooldown.

I know I'm being pedantic here, but virtual cooldown checks are still conditional checks; the activation condition being when the desired number of seconds has passed.

[Sciberr]

Can anyone hook me up with a NB fix?!

[Gyurza83]

Can anyone hook me up with a NB fix?!

How dare you?

p.s. If you find out about the fix. Please tell me. I'm not for myself, just a friend asked.

[Swat]

Can anyone hook me up with a NB fix?!

+

[Parallell86]

while doing pvp!!!!

Your stupidity knows no limit. If cultivating becomes a PVE based profession, fine I wouldnt need MGRemix. Problem is the vanilla cultivation window is a big ass thing that would block part of your screen in PVP and force you to sit in IC/Altdorf just to cultivate for hours. Cultivating itself doesnt really give you an edge in PVP does it? If anything it's crapping down your own FPS over time. In massive RVR MGRemix is hardly viable to even have enabled.

There's no need to get personal! My stupidity is very much out of your business!

It doesn't give any edge in PVP, who cares? Automation in pvp seems a problem for you, maybe automation in crafting offend someone else, who do you think you are judging what is more important?

How about: No one mentioned other automisations til they put their foot down on NB. Its not like theres been a rally on the forum against Miracle Grow Remix addon. "We talisman makers find this to be deeply disturbing!!" No? No.