Testing Non Meta things (Chosen Video)

[Detangler]

For me this video shows two broken things:

1. There should be an internal cooldown for Bane Shield. Shield of the Sun has also got an ICD of 3s for a reason. People that are hitting a group with reflecting aura with aoe are getting way too much damage for a passive ability you just turn on - for the whole group.

2. No tank should be able to stand in focus fire like that without having troubles to survive. When an army of attackers cannot take out a single tank then they are absolute monsters in smaller scale. And they are. Look up the better tanks on killboard and see that they barely ever die.

If tanks are able to go full def and defend everything than here must be a counter on dps side to go full glass cannon to shut them down. But there isn't. You can get renown ablities to increase dodge/block/parry, but you can't get the same cheap renown abilities to bypass that. Broken concept. The change of guard to parry and the removal of the M2 100% boost for ranged dps made that worse.

1. There is. its like 1 second.

2. Any shield tank in decent gear and heals can do this. This is what tanks are for, and you want them to change it?

[Tesq]

For me this video shows two broken things:

1. There should be an internal cooldown for Bane Shield. Shield of the Sun has also got an ICD of 3s for a reason. People that are hitting a group with reflecting aura with aoe are getting way too much damage for a passive ability you just turn on - for the whole group.

2. No tank should be able to stand in focus fire like that without having troubles to survive. When an army of attackers cannot take out a single tank then they are absolute monsters in smaller scale. And they are. Look up the better tanks on killboard and see that they barely ever die.

If tanks are able to go full def and defend everything than here must be a counter on dps side to go full glass cannon to shut them down. But there isn't. You can get renown ablities to increase dodge/block/parry, but you can't get the same cheap renown abilities to bypass that. Broken concept. The change of guard to parry and the removal of the M2 100% boost for ranged dps made that worse.

1. There is. its like 1 second.

2. Any shield tank in decent gear and heals can do this. This is what tanks are for, and you want them to change it?

this is the problem they dont understand tank should be able to soak even more (also target ap) dmg so that the wb can manage more then theirs numbers, to beat the zerg.

when you start importing all the things such rock paper scissors etc from other game balance you are alredy breaking the way the game work, tank should have no counter exept being hit while no heal on them ( point ), and if you are hitting tank before killing everything else it's your problem, positon better or use cc to displace enemy side to hit something else. Also reflect builds help keep up damage x second vs zerg. Even IB / kobs can do these build, before even b.ork could by allow whole party to use spike potion ineatas armor pot by buff their armor instead ( removed option passed as buff to bork...); the fact chosen can do it better than kobs is purely due kobs buffing group heal ( dmg vs heal balance of sort).

[lumpi33]

1. There is. its like 1 second.

2. Any shield tank in decent gear and heals can do this. This is what tanks are for, and you want them to change it?

1. Since when? Last time I check (roughly 2 years ago) there was no internal cooldown at all and I didn't see any patch notes changing it. Anyway why should have the chosen a 1s cooldown and the knight a 3s? Both should be 3s. 1s is less than the gcd.

2. Exactly, any shield tank in decent gear can do it. This is what tanks are for? Well yes but RoR gives them very powerful tools to protect others, reduce damge for the whole group, do crowd control and damage. All while being incredible tanky. Tanks are there to tank but DPS is there to kill. If DPS cannot kill the tank or anything the tank is protecting then ... it's not working.

Just look at the premade wbs roaming. The good ones have insane amount of kills and almost no deaths. Healers are powerful themselves to keep people alive, there is no need for these unkillable juggernauts (tanks) in between - with all the tools they have at their hands. They can have it but then DPS must be able to kill them in time. They have no real weak spot. That was my point. In other games tanks with heavy armor are resistant to melee but vulnerable to magic. A concept like this is missing in warhammer / ror.

Having ultra bursty dps is as bad as having ultra tanky tanks. The dps looks fine over all but the tanks are too survivable right now. They just have to bring them down to a normal level. Like having 120%+ physical mitigation as sov tank is absurd. I know that there is a 75% cap but it allows them to stay above that cap even with debuffs. Why is that needed?

All they'd have to do is nerf that melee aoe stacking that mows down everything in seconds and then nerf tank survivability and guard a little. That would bring everything more into line. At the moment everything but melee aoe stacking is just fluff and wont kill anything - because melee aoe stacking and tanks/guard is overpowered. Nerf both and we will be fine after.

[Absinth]

For me this video shows two broken things:

1. There should be an internal cooldown for Bane Shield. Shield of the Sun has also got an ICD of 3s for a reason. People that are hitting a group with reflecting aura with aoe are getting way too much damage for a passive ability you just turn on - for the whole group.

2. No tank should be able to stand in focus fire like that without having troubles to survive. When an army of attackers cannot take out a single tank then they are absolute monsters in smaller scale. And they are. Look up the better tanks on killboard and see that they barely ever die.

If tanks are able to go full def and defend everything than here must be a counter on dps side to go full glass cannon to shut them down. But there isn't. You can get renown ablities to increase dodge/block/parry, but you can't get the same cheap renown abilities to bypass that. Broken concept. The change of guard to parry and the removal of the M2 100% boost for ranged dps made that worse.

They cant stand there in focus because they will get moved down, you can see his hp dropping hard and then getting healed, its healers keeping him alive, without them he would have been dead, if he tried to do this outside of the keep funnel he would have been mowed down by horde of slayers on rampage.
In first video there is not a lot of people soo he can stay directly in entrance and tank but on second notice how he drops to half of his hp in instant and then gets healed. Just because you are unable to notice those things it means that your look into the game is narrow and is probably twisted by being a rdps main.

1. There is. its like 1 second.

2. Any shield tank in decent gear and heals can do this. This is what tanks are for, and you want them to change it?

[...]

2. Exactly, any shield tank in decent gear can do it. This is what tanks are for? Well yes but RoR gives them very powerful tools to protect others, reduce damge for the whole group, do crowd control and damage. All while being incredible tanky. Tanks are there to tank but DPS is there to kill. If DPS cannot kill the tank or anything the tank is protecting then ... it's not working.

Just look at the premade wbs roaming. The good ones have insane amount of kills and almost no deaths. Healers are powerful themselves to keep people alive, there is no need for these unkillable juggernauts (tanks) in between - with all the tools they have at their hands. They can have it but then DPS must be able to kill them in time. They have no real weak spot. That was my point. In other games tanks with heavy armor are resistant to melee but vulnerable to magic. A concept like this is missing in warhammer / ror.

Having ultra bursty dps is as bad as having ultra tanky tanks. The dps looks fine over all but the tanks are too survivable right now. They just have to bring them down to a normal level. Like having 120%+ physical mitigation as sov tank is absurd. I know that there is a 75% cap but it allows them to stay above that cap even with debuffs. Why is that needed?

All they'd have to do is nerf that melee aoe stacking that mows down everything in seconds and then nerf tank survivability and guard a little. That would bring everything more into line. At the moment everything but melee aoe stacking is just fluff and wont kill anything - because melee aoe stacking and tanks/guard is overpowered. Nerf both and we will be fine after.

Tanks are for being a hitting bag that annoys others while they make sure their team is alive.
Ultra-tanky sponge tanks are bad and you will see that they do nothing except standing in middle of 2wb blob for 5mins while enemies try to mow them down, but in every game you will have this behaviour afterall most ego players dont want to die.
Nerf guard and ultra bursty dps gets nerfed with it because classes like choppa/slayer need the guard, if you make tank even squishier than they are already then noone will guard slayer/choppa because it will be death sentence(even now without good gear it is suicidal and have fun to even think about guarding them on 2h).

Also about "premade WBs roaming" the reason why such warbands dont die and mow everything is that they are organised more than pugs and there is some sort of selection on the way in, soo you are sure that tank will click challenge and will guard the target not to say that dps will follow the MA and healers will not just mindlessly spam aoe heal but also care about people outside of the group. It's just natural that organised will beat the crap out of pug. Hit one of those wb's versus another one like this and you will have both sides with casualities.

[lumpi33]

Nerf guard and ultra bursty dps gets nerfed with it because classes like choppa/slayer need the guard, if you make tank even squishier than they are already then noone will guard slayer/choppa because it will be death sentence(even now without good gear it is suicidal and have fun to even think about guarding them on 2h).

For badly geared players it is probably a death sentence, yes, but for the 80+ people in end game gear it is not a death sentence at all. Just have an eye on these melee premades. You can throw whatever you have at them and they will just shrug it off. Why? Reduced chance to crit, high parry, high wounds, charge to get out, absorbs, heals, potions, morals, tanks supporting them. For these people the 50% guard is a complete overkill. In orvr and more so in small scale. Choppa/slayer are supposed to die easily. That's how they were designed. The game offers quick rezzing without draw backs for the rezzed one. Lowering the guard to something like 35% would be perfectly fine. It would be still very powerful.

It's just natural that organised will beat the crap out of pug.

To some degree yes. However, what you can see in orvr is a whole lot different story. Just recently we tried to fight a 24 man premade with a whole lot of people. Like twice as many (small groups and solos). Couldn't kill any of them while they did the same trick over and over again, falling back, waiting for morals, pushing in, mowing everything down in seconds with their aoe train and rushing back again. After 20 mins of back and forth (they were close to out warcamp) they had like 200 kills, the attackers maybe 10. Scenes like these happening every day.

They probably had a blast, yeah, but what they were actually doing is abusing the best setup and classes to the maximum and minimizing their risk. Unless you have the same abusing melee aoe premade on your side you will not be able to take them down. Ranged aoe is soo far away from that melee aoe blobbing that it's not fun anymore. You are basically useless as a ranged dd against these setups. You can't stack the aoe, the channels have long cooldowns, damage is low, it is just getting shrugged off. Even if you try to burst some with single target you wont get them down because you cannot burn through 8-10k of wounds fast enough when 8 healers are watching. Even if you succeed, they will be rezzed a few seconds after.

Long story short: melee aoe can be stacked unlimited with low cooldowns, great damage, medium armor classes, good morals and guard that takes off the risk from them while as ranged aoe you have less armor, less defense, less aoe damage, less escape abilities, no stacking and the tank should be in front not in the back at you. You don't have to be a genius to see that this is not working out well. Thus the current melee blob aoe meta where you can't kill the choppa/slayer because of guard, nor the super tough tank who is guarding with a setup that is not the same abusing aoe meta setup.

The game has turned more and more into a "who is having more of these aoe melee meta blobbing premades". The rest doesn't really matter. Instead of everybody having fun and getting kills only these elite premades are actually having the fun, stomping others with almost no risk. This ain't fun.

[Detangler]

1. There is. its like 1 second.

2. Any shield tank in decent gear and heals can do this. This is what tanks are for, and you want them to change it?

1. Since when? Last time I check (roughly 2 years ago) there was no internal cooldown at all and I didn't see any patch notes changing it. Anyway why should have the chosen a 1s cooldown and the knight a 3s? Both should be 3s. 1s is less than the gcd.

Since forever ago? Go out and test it. There was a bug fiasco years ago where Dire Shielding would buff everyone (and i mean EVERYONE) around the Chosen when they fired it off. It was good for some lols doing 4000 return damage every second to some poor Engie that dropped napalm, but it was hotfixed away within a day. Even then it had an ICD.

1. There is. its like 1 second.

2. Any shield tank in decent gear and heals can do this. This is what tanks are for, and you want them to change it?

2. Exactly, any shield tank in decent gear can do it. This is what tanks are for? Well yes but RoR gives them very powerful tools to protect others, reduce damge for the whole group, do crowd control and damage. All while being incredible tanky. Tanks are there to tank but DPS is there to kill. If DPS cannot kill the tank or anything the tank is protecting then ... it's not working.

Assisting works. Also a tank can't guard everything, so have a shot caller that knows to look for the guard icon.

Just look at the premade wbs roaming. The good ones have insane amount of kills and almost no deaths.

Duh, they are premades. There is a world of difference in everyone having comms and having a good leader telling people what to do vs. 80% of pug warbands with the "strong but silent" leaders giving bare minimum direction on what to do. Join one and you'll see what I mean.

Healers are powerful themselves to keep people alive, there is no need for these unkillable juggernauts (tanks) in between - with all the tools they have at their hands. They can have it but then DPS must be able to kill them in time. They have no real weak spot. That was my point. In other games tanks with heavy armor are resistant to melee but vulnerable to magic. A concept like this is missing in warhammer / ror.

The unkillable juggernaut spec tanks dont do diddly for damage, so just punt, snare, and stun them and focus on the squishies. Tanks are fine in this game - probably the best iteration of the holy trinity in gaming because of guard/challenge/taunt mechanics making tanks useful. Some tweaking should be necessary - yes. Hold the Line is a powerful ability to mitigate ranged damage, but there is no similar ability for melee. I would advocate leaving the 24 aoe cap for ranged but making it something like 16 for melee. Also bring back AoE heal debuffs mirrored on both sides.

Having ultra bursty dps is as bad as having ultra tanky tanks. The dps looks fine over all but the tanks are too survivable right now. They just have to bring them down to a normal level. Like having 120%+ physical mitigation as sov tank is absurd. I know that there is a 75% cap but it allows them to stay above that cap even with debuffs. Why is that needed?

120% armor mitigation is necessary because melee dps often have 50-75% armor mitigation through abilities and weaponskill stacking. This would bring them down to only 30-50% mitigation from melee. Not quite as tanky as initially realized.

All they'd have to do is nerf that melee aoe stacking that mows down everything in seconds and then nerf tank survivability and guard a little. That would bring everything more into line. At the moment everything but melee aoe stacking is just fluff and wont kill anything - because melee aoe stacking and tanks/guard is overpowered. Nerf both and we will be fine after.

Yes, bring down AoE melee target limit, drop Rampage's duration or remove ability to generate rage during Rampage, remove GtdC pull on initial click, and the game would be much more fun in large scale funnel fights. Small changes, then test. Then more small changes, then test. Big disclaimers regarding changes that they may be reverted based on data so people don't get panties twisted over their favorite class. But yes, melee is a bit too strong and ranged is overlooked outside of keep wall fighting.

[Sufferkate]

Nice vid. Also, speccing block, on Black Orc = Great door stop, as well.(even in, GREEN gear)

[lumpi33]

BOTH sides are balanced,(not exact match/mirror.)...

You didn't get the point and Im sure that there are people that want to keep the status quo for the easy stomp.

A blind can see that melee aoe stacking is 10 times more effective then everything else. Sure, you can kill with other setups too but when you face the melee blob you gonna release after. Stop pretending otherwise. It's not true. It allows you to build setups that kill super fast and have almost no risk of dying because you are already gone before the engineer has cast his turret... That was the whole point. Tank/guard being too strong, ranged dps too weak to harm them, melee aoe stacking overpowered...

[Sufferkate]

Possible reason, for out-damaging ranged. Could be: 1. Their Not guarded & stayed back. OR 2. Poor view of enemies, (due to #1) and a wall of tanks, in the way.

[BluIzLucky]

Just testing a new thing, cuz meta is boring xD

AOE DMG Backlash Build as full def Tank doing more dmg then DPS LuL

It´s just a showcase for something different, nothing more, nothing less ^^

I remember fondly a premade city against destro stacking a full set of snb backlash Chosens, all doing +1M damage

Just curious, I don't have Chosen, but if you are trying to max out spike damage, is invader really the best?

You have 3 triggers of spike damage:
1. Attacked: Discordant Fluctuations (magic only)
2. Blocked: invader 7p
3. On hit (attack not avoided/block or fully absorbed): Backlash, Bane Shield, Pilfer, Blades, Vitalize, spike potion

Meaning you'd want a build that takes as many hits but reduces their dmg as much as possible:

4p Onslaught (pilfer proc)
+ 3p sov main
+ 2p triumphant/lotd + 2p genesis.
With Bluntstop shield (Blades proc) and bloodlord(+5% dmg) or whatever 1h

Renown/talis: Full FS/TB and stack toughness/wounds

Going Invader means you'd want to stack block, but that degrades your other procs, though I suppose it comes down to surviving and much dmg each proc actually does with ICD considerations, and how useful you are.