[SL/Chop] Fierceness/Even The Odds

[Morf]

I would disagree with both proposals.

Fierceness change - ws is hard to come by in terms of buffs and this effects your whole group, its very very good, crit buffs are quite common (for order) and im sure higher crit levels is something thats not wanted.
Further more slayers and choppas have enervating blow and try an hurt me which you can put on the deadliest dps that is hitting you to negate the ini debuff, granted this is only a single target ability.
I can understand why fierceness would warrant tweaking but i dont see changing it as mentioned by the op a good option, i would much prefer seeing the ini debuff reduced.

Even the odds - the good thing about this ability is that the stat it buffs decreases all damage types, a change to boost a % stat makes it even more situational (useless), the main use for this ability is when your tank has been knocked away where you are no longer affected by a tough buff and you are taking damage.
Even the odds is by no means great but it has its use, a use that isnt just for fighting amongst rdps, its mainly used for the opposite when being beat on by melee.
Untouchable works just fine and is all you need in terms of pushing or fighting around a bunch of rdps, hold the line also works very well and if you have an ib with you runic shield is great against casters which is what seems to be your reasoning for such change.

[roadkillrobin]

I completly missread the Feircness/Bring da pain sugestion.
I tought he wanted self crit increase by 3/stack instead of WS buff.
Makes more sence now.

[Gerv]

So far points made:
1) The initiative debuff in the current game environment is extreme. While the buff of weapon skill, is a stat increase hard to find.
2) The crit change may not stack with additional ability values and could be unique.
3) The % dodge/disrupt increase can be covered by other abilities

Discussion going forward:
- Duration of abilities and cooldown, value of initiative debuff, potential adjustments to toughness aspect.

[Cimba]

So far points made:
1) The initiative debuff in the current game environment is extreme. While the buff of weapon skill, is a stat increase hard to find.
2) The crit change may not stack with additional ability values and could be unique.
3) The % dodge/disrupt increase can be covered by other abilities

Discussion going forward:
- Duration of abilities and cooldown, value of initiative debuff, potential adjustments to toughness aspect.

In general I like the idea of abilities with high cooldowns instead of spamable ones. Especially when their benefit is situational. I feel like thats something were a good player can shine. In this context I would leave the cooldowns at 60 sec.

Every order tank can buff thoughness with values somewhere between 80 and 120. Assuming the value from the opening post we would then see a marginal benefit in thoughness when more than 3 or 4 players are within 20ft range of the slayer. 20ft radius is not a lot meaning that if you kite out of the fight to reduce incoming damage this ability is kind of pointless.
This leaves the option for using it before you engage but due to the short duration, it's not particulary amazing there either. I would just suggest to remove the range component from the spell. This give you a strong thoughness buff (~210) which would create a benefit even when other buffs are present. But wouldn't turn you into a tank due to the short duration and high cooldown.

If you reduce the Initiative debuff by half it would still significantly increase your chance to be crit (to somehwere around 25-30%) when you're still on merc gear. But it might become useable with better gear. Not a big fan of that solution though. I dont like it when the usefullness of an ability is so direcetly linked to gear progression.

[roadkillrobin]

The problem with Feircness/Bring da Pains is that it gives maybe 5% dmg increasse on averege but increase the dmg you take by something like 30%. But i think it's pretty established that the debufff portion is not worth the buff portion and probobly needs a flat value of like 9% chance to be crit. Whats i I also like about having a flat value, is that the skills gets much better the more Mastery points you put into it but the debuff stays the same.

[nebelwerfer]

I need to clear up something that was very misunderstood from the OP. Sry about this.

I did not intend for the original effects from the abilities to disappear in place for the new ones. That would make them worse imo.

Please make arguments based on this

Fierceness *3 = 120 ws + 3%crit - 120 initiative
Even the odds *x = x toughness and a flat bonus to dodge or disrupt depending on if you are slayer/choppa

just a general buff to their core abilities.

[Bozzax]

So far points made:
1) The initiative debuff in the current game environment is extreme. While the buff of weapon skill, is a stat increase hard to find.
2) The crit change may not stack with additional ability values and could be unique.
3) The % dodge/disrupt increase can be covered by other abilities

Discussion going forward:
- Duration of abilities and cooldown, value of initiative debuff, potential adjustments to toughness aspect.

In general I like the idea of abilities with high cooldowns instead of spamable ones. Especially when their benefit is situational. I feel like thats something were a good player can shine. In this context I would leave the cooldowns at 60 sec.

Every order tank can buff thoughness with values somewhere between 80 and 120. Assuming the value from the opening post we would then see a marginal benefit in thoughness when more than 3 or 4 players are within 20ft range of the slayer. 20ft radius is not a lot meaning that if you kite out of the fight to reduce incoming damage this ability is kind of pointless.
This leaves the option for using it before you engage but due to the short duration, it's not particulary amazing there either. I would just suggest to remove the range component from the spell. This give you a strong thoughness buff (~210) which would create a benefit even when other buffs are present. But wouldn't turn you into a tank due to the short duration and high cooldown.

If you reduce the Initiative debuff by half it would still significantly increase your chance to be crit (to somehwere around 25-30%) when you're still on merc gear. But it might become useable with better gear. Not a big fan of that solution though. I dont like it when the usefullness of an ability is so direcetly linked to gear progression.

Even with no CD these 2 abilities would not be meaningful to spam since they cost GCDs and have a short duration. To fire them at the exact right moment is where the skill is not by them being on CD 90% of the time.

"All" other abilities that are on 30-60s are extremely powerful stuff these 2 are just ridiculous in comparison. Also they are masked most of the time by significantly more reliable buffs

Weapon skill is reliably provided by BO or SM stat steal and the ini debuff makes every application a serious gamble.

Toughness is reliably provided by BO or SM stat steal and auras. So if you are Pro and times every application 100% you'll enjoy 10s of slightly more tanky every once in a while. It is even questionable if it is worth the GCD to try.

As I see it either you make them both significantly better on 60s CD or you drop CD to 2x duration and only make small tweaks such as reduce the ini debuff to standard debuff levels.

I like the latter more since 1min OP abilities are worse for balance

[Bozzax]

I need to clear up something that was very misunderstood from the OP. Sry about this.

I did not intend for the original effects from the abilities to disappear in place for the new ones. That would make them worse imo.

Please make arguments based on this

Fierceness *3 = 120 ws + 3%crit - 120 initiative
Even the odds *x = x toughness and a flat bonus to dodge or disrupt depending on if you are slayer/choppa

just a general buff to their core abilities.

Don't want more crits in game so increased weapon skill buff is a better option
Don't think slayers should get one type avoidance and choppa the other simply poor design imo

[dansari]

Completely agree with bozzax. Drop the CDs to 30s and tweak values slightly to be in line with 30s abilities.

[Darosh]

Limit the initiative debuff to 50 to bring it in line with other initiative debuffs or limit the increase in chance to be crit to smth static like 5-10% - that would still resemble a significant risk/reward situation and work towards normalizing numbers across the board.